Everything seems to be cyclical. When the Navy went from "five offa the fantail" to qualifying on silhouettes (20/30 at 75', Bullseye firing speeds for both pistols and rifles), the base ranges were maxed out. So if there was a forest range available, they went there. Chiefs who were gun club members arranged for the use of club ranges, usually in exchange for a working party to paint/spruce up the range, or for a 20lb tin of ground coffee.Originally Posted by TGS
If we have to march off into the next world, let us walk there on the bodies of our enemies.
I wonder if this is a reason that, at least during the mid-2000s, there was a revival of the "5 off fantail" qualification as reported by my brother. Perhaps they did it out of necessity if there was no availability to get guys through an actual qualification course of fire?
Short Answer: Bean counters.
Long Answer:
Base Realignment and Closure Act from the late 80s to mid-2000s closed 350 bases so they could concentrate troops at a smaller number of bases for purposes of efficiency. So now even if we've got less troops overall compared to the cold war, we've got more troops per training area than we ever did.
@HCM brought up a good point with the SDZs, though. If you're running a range for a weapons system that requires a larger SDZ as opposed to smaller, that doesn't just mean that the range may take up more physical space as he has pointed out........it means you may actually shut down other ranges' operations as they're located within the SDZ/impact zone for your range when shooting XYZ weapon system (but not when shooting a smaller weapons system).
As an extreme example, shooting a TOW. A single TOW shot can virtually shut down operations on all training areas on some bases for a period of 30 minutes.....obviously longer if you're taking more shots. Or........shooting artillery. That can shut down a wide swath of a bases training areas in the direction of fire, meaning you can't shoot on what ranges might be impacted by the safety measures.
The military generally doesn't have indoor ranges in administrative or billeting areas (like, next to the PX or something) that you can go to shoot some pistols or rifles if the training areas out in the boondocks are unavailable. The closest they have to that are the big-screen simulators using CO2 guns......sort of like an oversized military version of the FATS used by police. However, those are pretty much exclusively run by contractors which means you need all sorts of pre-approval and scheduling to make it happen. It's not like you can just call them up and say, "Hey my M9 range day got cancelled because the armored scouts needed to shift right on their timeline and their TOWs are closing the only available pistol range we were slated for. Can I stop by with my platoon to get in some range time, even if it's just virtual?" Not realistic.
I used to work in operations on a base while I was in the USMC. The scheduling of training areas was jam packed down to the hour. Any change required another unit to be displaced about 90%+ of the time. Just to fulfill our baseline mandated training (not even "extra" stuff) we had to routinely outsource (rent) training areas from a nearby army reserve base which was just one big giant plot of woods filled with training areas, and even they were pretty busy. When my current federal LE agency needed to consolidate our training and as part of that needed a bomb range we could run whenever we wanted, literally no base within 4 hours was capable of accommodating us so we became tenants at a state national guard base about 5 hours away where we built our own training areas. Supposedly it was due to be closed if we hadn't moved in, which is ridiculous since it was still utilized routinely for training even without us. I have a buddy who is in the national guard 700 miles away and his unit even had to travel all the way there for general training (i.e. not any sort of program specific thing unique to the base like how Ft Dix ran a C-IED program).
Bean counters are the devil. They ruin military training and effectiveness. They ruin hospital staffing and ability to surge. They ruin police response times and efficacy. If anyone reading this is a "bean counter", you can go fucking die in a fire.
This is about the extent I can speak to the issue without getting out of my lane. @rcbusmc24 for more.
Last edited by TGS; 09-23-2021 at 10:26 AM.
"Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer
Oh the joys of RFMSS, dealing with scheduling and conflicting priorities... along with getting co uses approved, coordinating air windows/ airspace and SUAS deconfliction, NOTAM's being posted, shutting down roads if we are shooting particular DODIC's.... We fired a Tomahawk last week in support of a large scale naval exercise into our G10 Multi use impact area, It shut down half the mainside training areas and airspace for it to happen.....
Then there is the commanders confirmation brief, ammo requests that have to be submitted 60 days out unless you want to get a 06 level waiver, ORM matrixes, and the logistical requirements.... Transpo requests, ammo lift requests, medical support, BOM requests and authorizations.... Getting the weapons LTI/PFI'ed prior to any live fire event to include blank's....
Fun times.....
FML.
"So strong is this propensity of mankind, to fall into mutual animosities, that where no substantial occasion presents itself, the most frivolous and fanciful distinctions have been sufficient to kindle their unfriendly passions, and excite their most violent conflicts." - James Madison, Federalist No 10
What do you have, two weeks left?
"Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer
I pick up my retirement orders, DD214 and other assorted stuff at IPAC on monday morning, and depart on terminal leave. Tomorrow is the 20 year mark, actual retirement date is Oct 31. We didn't wrap up the last raid course until last Friday.
"So strong is this propensity of mankind, to fall into mutual animosities, that where no substantial occasion presents itself, the most frivolous and fanciful distinctions have been sufficient to kindle their unfriendly passions, and excite their most violent conflicts." - James Madison, Federalist No 10
It was the AIT portion of OSUT at Ft. Knox. Familiarity with the 1911 did help, but there were a couple of others who shot Expert, not sure of their previous experience.
@TGS, Jesus Christ, I knew there was bureaucracy and logistical concerns, but that is so convoluted and idiotic that I cannot comprehend it.
I thought the point of an all volunteer professional military was to improve these kind of things, not somehow manage to condense and exacerbate all the failings of a lowest common denominator draft force.
Is it a consequence of the last 20 years of persistent conflict, or was a lot of these issues also prevalent pre-GWOT?
I can't honestly answer that question about pre-GWOT, and I think there's probably precious few here who can. That's a very specific time to transition, and the subject matter of training management isn't something the average bear will be able to speak intelligently about unless they were a SNCO or officer as the average grunt is just getting told to go here and go there; they don't have any exposure on the backend operations of training management.
Basically, everything is run on mission essential tasks. The 1st Mandowookie Regiment has to be proficient in a set of specific tasks, and everything is broken down by the numbers, barney style, on a flowchart of enabling and terminal objectives. In order for the 1st Mandowookie Regiment to be considered up to snuff as a combat unit, they have to be "certified" in their various mission essential tasks. This could include individual skills (weapons quals being just one of many) or unit skills (such as a company sized helo raid). The planning and reservation of training areas for their training cycle starts before most of the unit's personnel is even in place, and is measured in years. If the 1st Mandwookie Regiment is going on a deployment as part of a special purpose task force, such as being CENTCOMs SP-MAGTF-CR, then there's additional mission essential tasks they'll have to be certified on through other training packages, like the ones that rcbusmc24 has run for the last few years.
Thus, the allocation of training areas is based off of these mission essential tasks and statistically how much those training areas will be utilized. This is why special units will often be given their own areas for training...it's not because they're "cool guys", it's because their requirement of being at the cutting edge requires flexibility in training venue availability and utilization.
Note: that's for combat units where their job in between deployments is literally just to train. That doesn't even begin to touch support units (admin, MPs, intelligence, supply, etc) where their job is to actually do a job day-to-day, not train. You can't just pull your S1 shop to go to the range nilly willy for a reason that is extracurricular to your mission essential tasks. Bitches need their pay, and rcbusmc24 needs to EAS; you have 7 personnel in a shop task-organized for the work of 11. How's that range time going to work?
Last edited by TGS; 09-23-2021 at 01:07 PM.
"Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer
Congratulations.
Fixed it for you.
If we have to march off into the next world, let us walk there on the bodies of our enemies.
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