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Thread: The last M9's have been delivered...an end of an era (also pic of upcoming "M9A4")

  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by MandoWookie View Post
    So, in the opinion of the folks in here who have served, what would an effective training and skills maintenance program look like for the Army( and other services too), and what would have to change institutionally to make it viable?
    Was there ever a point in history that the standards and training was noticeably superior to how it is done now? And if so, how do you move the pendulum back in that direction?
    I was a ARNG guy who was an MP for a contract and got out as an E5. A nobody. That's so outside my lane I wouldn't know where to start.

    I'm sure increased time and focus would be required.

  2. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cory View Post
    I was a ARNG guy who was an MP for a contract and got out as an E5. A nobody. That's so outside my lane I wouldn't know where to start.

    I'm sure increased time and focus would be required.
    Your opinion on how you think your training was handled, and how you would like to see it changed, in is your lane, because how 'nobody's' get trained is the crux of the question.

  3. #83
    Back in 1982 when I went through Armor School, we had 1911's. We had a day of classroom training on field stripping, basic maintenance, etc. on both the 1911 and the M3 SMG. The 1911 qualification was to shoot 30 rounds (I think) at pop up targets at various ranges, with a couple of slide lock reloads. Sometimes two targets sometimes one would pop up. The M3 was a fam fire type thing with crappy mags that didn't last too long, with my DS telling us that if we ever had to use a long gun in combat, ditch the M3 and pick up an M16 as there will be plenty lying around.

    I qualified Expert, as I used to shoot my Dad's surplus 1911 as a kid and was already familiar with handgun shooting. Seems like things have really gone down hill for the Army training wise.

  4. #84
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    @Suvorov - Way back when I was an HHC commander we had an M578 tracked recovery vehicle in the maintenance section. The individual weapons for the crew were M3A1 grease guns. It’s a shame something like that isn’t issued to DATs anymore.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by MandoWookie View Post
    So, in the opinion of the folks in here who have served, what would an effective training and skills maintenance program look like for the Army( and other services too), and what would have to change institutionally to make it viable?
    In the context of reality where you objectively have greater training and operational priority than pistol training: easier, last-minute access to ranges, guns, and training ammunition and a widespread availability of competent instructors instead of T3-stye instructors.

    Training areas on most bases are booked months, even a year in advance, it's just terribly difficult to do anything beyond the mandated baseline. So if your random XYZ event gets cancelled for tomorrow at 10am, it's virtually impossible to say, "No problem, we'll go hit up the range instead". Such would allow a more productive use of time than a hip-pocket class could ever hope to achieve, and greater morale instead of getting some terrible quality hip-pocket class that makes you want to become an alcoholic......or, even more common....getting told to field-day the barracks and getting otherwise fucked with.

    That would cost money, though. There's extremely little opportunity for NCOs and officers to freelance their guys with something actually productive, ranges being one thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tabasco View Post
    Seems like things have really gone down hill for the Army training wise.
    I think a better way of putting it is that the world advanced and the military has had trouble keeping up with advances.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  6. #86
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    ^^^^On top of that, the first sergeant can’t just call up the ASP and tell them “Hey, we need x amount of ammo for tomorrow because some other unit canceled their range.” That has to be forecast and budgeted way in advance.

    If folks in the military want more/better weapons training, they have to do it like cops do - on their own time and on their own dime, and additionally with their own weapon.

  7. #87
    Glock Collective Assimile Suvorov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabasco View Post
    Back in 1982 when I went through Armor School, we had 1911's. We had a day of classroom training on field stripping, basic maintenance, etc. on both the 1911 and the M3 SMG. The 1911 qualification was to shoot 30 rounds (I think) at pop up targets at various ranges, with a couple of slide lock reloads. Sometimes two targets sometimes one would pop up. The M3 was a fam fire type thing with crappy mags that didn't last too long, with my DS telling us that if we ever had to use a long gun in combat, ditch the M3 and pick up an M16 as there will be plenty lying around.

    I qualified Expert, as I used to shoot my Dad's surplus 1911 as a kid and was already familiar with handgun shooting. Seems like things have really gone down hill for the Army training wise.
    Doesn’t really sound like you got much more than I did. Was that Armor OBC or AIT? Had you not trained with your Dad’s 1911 do you think you would have shot expert? The qualification course sounds similar. I guess the point of my rants is that I do not believe the Big Army spends enough time training soldiers to handle and fight with the pistol, then when reports of the pistol not performing well in combat come forth, they decide the answer is to replace the current pistol.

    Quote Originally Posted by revchuck38 View Post
    @Suvorov - Way back when I was an HHC commander we had an M578 tracked recovery vehicle in the maintenance section. The individual weapons for the crew were M3A1 grease guns. It’s a shame something like that isn’t issued to DATs anymore.
    When I took my job as XO of my new Guard unit I performed my first inspection of the arms room. There was a locker with a padlock and the supply sergeant had no idea what was in it. We cut the lock and found 4 M3s. They weren’t on any of our books. My first thought was to go to the WalMart and buy a bunch of 45 ammo but sadly there were no magazines…..

  8. #88
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    Oh, we had some magazines, but at the time (‘87) .45 ammo was unobtanium for submachine guns. We still had 1911s and could barely get enough for annual qualification. This was a USAR MI battalion.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    In the context of reality where you objectively have greater training and operational priority than pistol training: easier, last-minute access to ranges, guns, and training ammunition and a widespread availability of competent instructors instead of T3-stye instructors.

    Training areas on most bases are booked months, even a year in advance, it's just terribly difficult to do anything beyond the mandated baseline. So if your random XYZ event gets cancelled for tomorrow at 10am, it's virtually impossible to say, "No problem, we'll go hit up the range instead". Such would allow a more productive use of time than a hip-pocket class could ever hope to achieve, and greater morale instead of getting some terrible quality hip-pocket class that makes you want to become an alcoholic......or, even more common....getting told to field-day the barracks and getting otherwise fucked with.

    That would cost money, though. There's extremely little opportunity for NCOs and officers to freelance their guys with something actually productive, ranges being one thing.



    I think a better way of putting it is that the world advanced and the military has had trouble keeping up with advances.
    So before any theoretical training improvements could be made, the range access and infrastructure would have to be improved?

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by MandoWookie View Post
    So before any theoretical training improvements could be made, the range access and infrastructure would have to be improved?
    I can't speak for all military bases, but yeah I'm under the impression most of them are pretty much maxed out on training area availability.

    Can't spend more time at the range if there's no available range to spend time at, no ammo to shoot, and no truly qualified personnel to teach instead of relying on T3-type instructors like we use now.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

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