Israel retiring the Tavor in favor of the M4

[Coyotesfan97]

I’ve never been issued a sub gun, as my first (and still using with a new upper) team gun was a Colt 933, but when I came on we had a mix of iron sight MP5/9, iron sight UMP45, and a menagerie of AR pattern carbines. I got to shoot the sub-guns fairly frequently for fam-fire and really did not care for the UMP.

I think the UMP was one of those “good idea on paper” situations that hurt the sub gun cause more than it helped. It was light and had a combination of MP and AR ergos/controls, which was nice. In semi it shot well (usual HK trigger mush) and 2rd bust was ok, but full auto was much less controllable than it should have been. The best way I can describe the full auto sensation was the whole gun tried to move in a football shaped path. I suspect the straight blowback action, requiring a rather heavy bolt in 45, paired with a very light receiver, made it so the majority of its mass was reciprocating. End result was the gun moved a lot and it was very hard to stay on the sights. Perhaps optics would have resolved the sights issues, but we never mounted them. Finally, double stack/single feed chonker mags were a poor design choice compared to the legacy MP5 mags.

I never did anything more than familiarization with the UMPs but that’s a pretty good summary why I didn’t like them. I wish I could remember how much the instructor said the straight blowback bolt would have to weigh if it was in a center fired rifle but it was crazy high.

[Ed L]

Meanwhile, Israeli Weapons Industries has announced that the Israeli Defense Forces is procuring additional X95 Micro Tavors. This is the more compact version with a 13" barrel:

https://soldiersystems.net/2021/09/0...efense-forces/

Another link that needs google translation: https://www.idf.il/137910

[DDTSGM]

I never did anything more than familiarization with the UMPs but that’s a pretty good summary why I didn’t like them. I wish I could remember how much the instructor said the straight blowback bolt would have to weigh if it was in a center fired rifle but it was crazy high.

IIRC for a .308 the weight they quoted was 37 or 39 pounds.

I did get a chance to attend a lot of HK courses, including Master Instructor. When I came to one class they had just hired a new instructor that I thought was a jerk (not to me to another student). When I came back the next time he had left, don't know if that was his choice or theirs.

HK ITD was a class operation IMO.

And, the UMP sucks, you can/could deadline one by allowing the lower receiver to drop while attached to the attachment lugs. Aside from that RBD is king of the subguns. The first class I put on after becoming an instructor had two Colt SMG's. The two guys were having a hard time when we started the auto portion, so I took one of their Colts during a lunch break to play with it - couldn't believe how much it jumped around. I used it during lunch the next couple days and found out I could make standards and qual with it, but not nearly as easily as with the MP5 - which, to me, would have been the deciding factor.

[TGS]

And, the UMP sucks, you can/could deadline one by allowing the lower receiver to drop while attached to the attachment lugs. Aside from that RBD is king of the subguns. The first class I put on after becoming an instructor had two Colt SMG's. The two guys were having a hard time when we started the auto portion, so I took one of their Colts during a lunch break to play with it - couldn't believe how much it jumped around. I used it during lunch the next couple days and found out I could make standards and qual with it, but not nearly as easily as with the MP5 - which, to me, would have been the deciding factor.

We finally ditched the Colt 635 a few years ago. Not just the MP5, but even the Mk18 is much more controllable on FA. We actually used the same qual for the first couple years with two FA strings, so plenty of opportunity to compare.