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Thread: Israel retiring the Tavor in favor of the M4

  1. #51
    Site Supporter Coyotesfan97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    @Coyotesfan97

    Is it possible they didn't want to sell the HK53/HK33 because they wanted to push the newer hotness, the G36c and G36k? Or did HK not actually try to push that either with your agency, or at the very least the programs/departments you're aware of being obvious customers to pursue?
    Frankly from what my friend the HK armorer, who was also a Master HK Instructor, told me HK didn’t care enough about our 30-40 man part time team and what to them were small orders. The MP5 Master class was one training I always wanted to attend but never got a chance.

    I did get and T&E the 36k and c. I wasn’t impressed with them. They mostly got a meh from the other guys who shot them. I never liked the UMP either and I think they liked to push that too.

    I don’t remember HK ever trying to sell us anything…
    The bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding, go out to meet it.* Thucydides 471BC

    "Hey! Let's be careful out there." Sgt Phil Esterhaus played by Michael Conrad

  2. #52
    Let's go Brandon! fatdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    @Coyotesfan97...they wanted to push the newer hotness, the G36c and G36k?
    No idea if it coincides with Coyotesfan97's timeframe, but there was a period about 15 years ago when HK USA relocated from VA to Trussville, AL for a few years before they headed to Columbus. During that time period they joined our gun club which was only a few miles away, and used the site to do their LE demo days. Got to be friends with many of the staff, some of whom shot USPSA with us, and in exchange for helping them come set those range days up, when things were over and the guests had left they let us play with the toys before everything went back into the Pelican cases. Great stuff. During that period of time they were indeed pushing the G36 and especially it seemed to me the G36K at LE as well as the whole family of the UMP's, 9mm, 40, 45 in addition to the current handguns of that period and the LEM trigger system.

    Never saw the roller lock systems at those events, almost as if they were forgotten. I did talk them into bringing the Breifcase MP5K with them one day and actually got to try it out.

    The G36K was a very controllable gun and easy to shoot well, or so I thought at the time.

  3. #53
    Site Supporter Coyotesfan97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatdog View Post
    No idea if it coincides with Coyotesfan97's timeframe, but there was a period about 15 years ago when HK USA relocated from VA to Trussville, AL for a few years before they headed to Columbus. During that time period they joined our gun club which was only a few miles away, and used the site to do their LE demo days. Got to be friends with many of the staff, some of whom shot USPSA with us, and in exchange for helping them come set those range days up, when things were over and the guests had left they let us play with the toys before everything went back into the Pelican cases. Great stuff. During that period of time they were indeed pushing the G36 and especially it seemed to me the G36K at LE as well as the whole family of the UMP's, 9mm, 40, 45 in addition to the current handguns of that period and the LEM trigger system.

    Never saw the roller lock systems at those events, almost as if they were forgotten. I did talk them into bringing the Breifcase MP5K with them one day and actually got to try it out.

    The G36K was a very controllable gun and easy to shoot well, or so I thought at the time.
    Fat dog this was the 2001-2005 timeframe. IIRC I went to the HK Operator/Instructor classes in Vegas in 2002. I do remember the 36s being easy to control but I didn’t like the package as a whole. I guess I’m a RDB type of guy

    I do have to say I never met an HK Instuctor I didn’t like. HK Training was squared away.
    The bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding, go out to meet it.* Thucydides 471BC

    "Hey! Let's be careful out there." Sgt Phil Esterhaus played by Michael Conrad

  4. #54
    Site Supporter Coyotesfan97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Given the market dominance of the MP5 pre GWOT the 5.56 market was theirs to lose.
    I’ve often thought if they’d gone around to teams using the MP5 and offered to transition them to 53s with trade ins for the MP5s they’d have made bank on it.
    The bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding, go out to meet it.* Thucydides 471BC

    "Hey! Let's be careful out there." Sgt Phil Esterhaus played by Michael Conrad

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
    Maybe they got a good deal on M4s from the Taliban?

    https://www.israelhayom.com/2021/09/...s-tavor-rifle/

    Most elite Israeli special forces units NEVER adopted the Tavor platform, yes they did practice with it as they do with other types of rifles platforms.

    At the same time Israeli military also retiring the older SR-25/MK11 platform and switching to the excellent Barrett REC-10


    Simong.

  6. #56
    Let's go Brandon! fatdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyotesfan97 View Post
    I do remember the 36s being easy to control but I didn’t like the package as a whole......never met an HK Instuctor I didn’t like. HK Training was squared away.
    I think that timeframe was just a few years before the AL time period for HK. End of the demo days when their customers had left, we would go into our target sheds and set up a small USPSA type stage, maybe 10-12 USPSA targets and then take turns with the different long guns running the thing. Deal always was you had to flip the selector to auto on the very last target on the stage and empty whatever was left in the mag. That 36K was the only gun I could 100% hold the A zone with every time on the last target, even with only the iron sights, never could do it consistently with the UMP's or for some reason the full size 36....that is probably the sole reason I remember having fondness for that 36K...no relevance to its real practicality for its intended purpose, just something my inner 10 year old was in love with.

  7. #57
    Mr. Shovel Lover Hambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyotesfan97 View Post
    I’ve often thought if they’d gone around to teams using the MP5 and offered to transition them to 53s with trade ins for the MP5s they’d have made bank on it.
    By the time subguns started to fall out of favor, it was too late. HK had their claw mount or go fuck yourself, while flat top Colts and optics had been in use since the mid 1990s.
    Go ahead and call the cops, you don't meet nice girls on traffic stops.

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by HeavyDuty View Post
    An acquaintance had a FS2000, I’ve wanted one ever since. I seriously doubt it would ever happen, I chose a X-95 for my singular bullpup dalliance.
    The X95 seems fine. I handled the regular Tavor and the X95. IIRC the X95 has a better trigger. If I got a regular Tavor I would have to have the geissele trigger pack. I looked at the Tavor and did some research, but was not motivated enough to buy one.

    The newer US made AUGS have better triggers than the old prebans like the one that I have. Luckily there is a product that has been on the market a while called the Trigger Tamer that allows you to easily switch one part in the AUG's trigger pack and get a much better trigger. While the website and wording is unimpressive, the product is really good--especially for the pre-ban AUGs. https://triggertamer.com/

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Coyotesfan97 View Post
    I’ve often thought if they’d gone around to teams using the MP5 and offered to transition them to 53s with trade ins for the MP5s they’d have made bank on it.
    I’ve never been issued a sub gun, as my first (and still using with a new upper) team gun was a Colt 933, but when I came on we had a mix of iron sight MP5/9, iron sight UMP45, and a menagerie of AR pattern carbines. I got to shoot the sub-guns fairly frequently for fam-fire and really did not care for the UMP.

    I think the UMP was one of those “good idea on paper” situations that hurt the sub gun cause more than it helped. It was light and had a combination of MP and AR ergos/controls, which was nice. In semi it shot well (usual HK trigger mush) and 2rd bust was ok, but full auto was much less controllable than it should have been. The best way I can describe the full auto sensation was the whole gun tried to move in a football shaped path. I suspect the straight blowback action, requiring a rather heavy bolt in 45, paired with a very light receiver, made it so the majority of its mass was reciprocating. End result was the gun moved a lot and it was very hard to stay on the sights. Perhaps optics would have resolved the sights issues, but we never mounted them. Finally, double stack/single feed chonker mags were a poor design choice compared to the legacy MP5 mags.
    Anything I post is my opinion alone as a private citizen.

  10. #60
    Site Supporter Coyotesfan97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hambo View Post
    By the time subguns started to fall out of favor, it was too late. HK had their claw mount or go fuck yourself, while flat top Colts and optics had been in use since the mid 1990s.
    I had an Aimpoint on my 53 but it wasn’t on a claw mount. I’ll be damned if I can remember the name of the company but it rested on top of the receiver with a screw tightened clamp. At the time it was the claw alternative.
    The bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding, go out to meet it.* Thucydides 471BC

    "Hey! Let's be careful out there." Sgt Phil Esterhaus played by Michael Conrad

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