Brian and Shelley Hill of The Complete Combatant need some help

[CWM11B]

Annnnnndddddddd...
They lost. Big surprise. And I'm sure those that complained are real proud of themselves. Probably have "Don't Tread On Me" flags flying and will tell you they don't need in any training because they "shoots a box o' boolets" every couple of months and they're ready for anything. Probably quick to tell you all about THEIR rights to do what they want on their land too.

Every piece of land I look it when I'm pipe dreaming is zoned "rural unrestricted" which is supposed to mean what it says. Try and put a range on it and you'll suffer the same fate. I can just about guarantee it. The "average" gun owner is just about as big a threat to shooting as the anti 2A crowd.

[Yung]

Sigh.

[AMC]

Our department range is located on the south west shore of Lake Merced in the City. Across from Harding Park Golf Course. They hold the PGA Nationals there. It's technically Water Department property, but we've been there since 1945. The PUC and developers want us out of there so badly they can taste it, and weekly I have to respond to complaints from neighbors about their children or dogs being frightened. One gentlemen told me that his 3rd grader couldn't sleep, because he was terrified of school shooters. He asked me what he was supposed to tell his child. I told him "You tell your son to rest easy. That the sound he hears is the men and women of your police department training to stop any bad person coming to his school to do him harm".

[RevolverRob]

I'm not surprised.

The reality is, running a commercial enterprise that involves land use requires doing all your due diligence with the authorities and neighbors. And with respect to the Hills, it seems that their property owner did not do that. This is, in some ways, no different than your neighbor running a shadetree mechanic's shop in his garage out back and lining the streets with cars he's working on. Fixing your neighbor's car or a friend's car is one thing, but fixing a hundred is another, it sounds like this is where they got into trouble.

Sound and pollution mitigation must absolutely be primary foci when planning a commercial range facility. It is not enough to just push up some dirt berms and call it good any more. Yes, it is more expensive to get those things off the ground. You pay your pound of flesh either by paying to build it right or paying through losing your business.

Sorry to the Hill's, I hope they're able to find/build an alternative range facility in the near future.

[Moylan]

And nowhere now is there a market for minor produce: a bucket of cream, a hen, a few dozen eggs. One cannot sell milk from a few cows anymore; the law-required equipment is too expensive. Those markets were done away with in the name of sanitation--but, of course, to the enrichment of the large producers. We have always had to have 'a good reason' for doing away with small operators, and in modern times the good reason has often been sanitation, for which there is apparently no small or cheap technology. Future historians will no doubt remark upon the inevitable association, with us, between sanitation and filthy lucre.

It doesn't matter if it's farming or firearms. The point is the same. The Hills didn't buy into the culture of usury and borrow $2 million to get a state-of-the-art range set up, and hence they must be shut down. Of course, we have a good reason--sanitation! In this case, sound pollution is the problem, but any pollution will do. Who could be in favor of pollution?

[CWM11B]

@Moylan
Agreed. Except for your two million loan comment. Waaaaaayyyyyy low, unless, of course, you have about 12 million in capital to put down already

[Yung]

[Wise_A]

At the risk of driving the conversation even further off-topic:

*Ranges frequently have problems when they shift from private- or club-use to commercial. It's not just a matter of what we call things, commercial use of a range dictates far more shooters, more groups, and more activity. This is something you should pay attention to when your club announces they're gonna let one of the good ol' boys run his shit NRA Defensive Pistol classes out of the club facility.

*It's real easy to poo-poo the neighbors for being gun-haters or Fudds. It's a little harder to live next door to a busy commercial range that runs extensive classes, and talk about muh freedums when it's not your house to resell.

*I think sound mitigation is primarily useful as a "look, we took some steps" measure. I think a much smarter option is to maybe not start your IPSC match at 9AM Saturday morning.

[Spartan1980]

I really hate this for them, but without knowing a thing about them or their area I could have predicted this exact outcome. In his first video when he said they wanted to be "good neighbors", I thought to myself, "yea man, that's going to get you exactly no quarter given". Sorry to hear I was correct.

I saw this almost exact same scenario play out a few years ago in Oklahoma where every single county has voted RED in the last three elections. An existing range accepted a "partner" who "bought in" by expanding the range to include constructing a big nice bay with berms that were way past industry standard to run his classes on. Line of fire was directed away from surrounding residences which were at least a 1/4 mile away and farther. Range was on rural land similar to this and zoned appropriately. The guy was a long time metro PD officer who has extensive training experience. They didn't give half a shit.

They shut him and the rest of the range down even though the county commissioners meeting was swarmed with a couple hundred of his supporters vouching for his professionalism. He had the resume to warrant it too. Then the same group showed to to politely support him in court. Judge was not impressed. That range had been there for years and they shut it down hard and fast because....Training.

[CWM11B]

I really hate this for them, but without knowing a thing about them or their area I could have predicted this exact outcome. In his first video when he said they wanted to be "good neighbors", I thought to myself, "yea man, that's going to get you exactly no quarter given". Sorry to hear I was correct.

I saw this almost exact same scenario play out a few years ago in Oklahoma where every single county has voted RED in the last three elections. An existing range accepted a "partner" who "bought in" by expanding the range to include constructing a big nice bay with berms that were way past industry standard to run his classes on. Line of fire was directed away from surrounding residences which were at least a 1/4 mile away and farther. Range was on rural land similar to this and zoned appropriately. The guy was a long time metro PD officer who has extensive training experience. They didn't give half a shit.

They shut him and the rest of the range down even though the county commissioners meeting was swarmed with a couple hundred of his supporters vouching for his professionalism. He had the resume to warrant it too. Then the same group showed to to politely support him in court. Judge was not impressed. That range had been there for years and they shut it down hard and fast because....Training.

Exactly. And this is why we will continue to lose training venues. If these folks were in area with zoning restrictions, then thats on them. On the other hand, if one chooses to live in a rural unrestricted zoning area, you take the good with the bad. Years ago, I used to train at Blackwater a lot. With my team and on my own dime. I went down there the first week they were open, and thought I was lost driving back in the swamp. It was five+ miles from where the paved road ended and the facility. Nothing, and I mean nothing around them and they were on 10k plus acres. Fast forward several years and there is a massive housing devleopment near the beginning of their property. Folks bitched. BW won, but still had to go through a hassle.

And we've GOT to stop eating our own. It seems to me that unless a trainer is a former member of xyz secret squirrel unit, or has a massive social media presence/personality, our so called "community" is quick to condemn/ridicule anyone that hangs out their shingle. Im notbsaying don't vet them, but there a plenty of very qualifed instructors out there who aren't all over the various social networks who just want to impart the knowledge they've aquired.