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Thread: NYPD going to lighter trigger?

  1. #1

    NYPD going to lighter trigger?

    https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...mpression=true



    Best piece of the story: The move, which one civil rights lawyer said “doesn’t make sense” and could lead to more police killings, means that new cops will need to apply less pressure to the trigger.


    John Farnam's take:


    A New Epiphany!

    25 Aug 21

    The nation’s largest police department, NYPD, has had yet another epiphany!

    Since using G19s (for the most part) since the 1990s, all equipped with department-mandated “NY Triggers,” which boosted trigger pull-weight to a nominal twelve pounds, the department has now decided to reduce trigger pull-weight back to five/six pounds, which is the way most Glocks come from the factory!

    The first class of recruits to have been trained with the new system will graduate next month.

    The issue is, of course, balancing practical accuracy with the likelihood of UDs.

    UDs are an embarrassing issue with police departments, usually a bigger issue than is poor accuracy!

    Back in the revolver days, virtually every police UD resulted from the officer manually cocking his pistol. So long as officers fired exclusively via the “trigger-cocking mode,” UDs were rare with revolvers.

    In fact, for a time NYPD issued “uncockable revolvers” in an effort to deal with the UD issue. There was no full-cock notch on the hammer, and the hammer itself did not have a spur, so it could not be manually cocked.

    Accuracy was unaffected, but UDs did go down significantly!

    Yet, accuracy was still far from acceptable!

    Bullets fired by police officers at dangerous felons actually impact somewhere on the felon himself less than half the time. Other (errant) bullets go on to hit other things, sometimes other people!

    Some PDs boast better accuracy, but police bullets that fail to impact where intended continue to greatly worry police chiefs, mayors, and especially the public!

    NYPD insists, correctly, that poor accuracy:

    1) Generates errant police bullets that endanger innocent people and property

    2) Results in additional shots being fired by police, which are unnecessary when the first shot(s) fired hit the intended target, and have the intended effect.

    3) Results in dangerous felon(s) not being stopped immediately, but continuing to endanger officers and innocent bystanders.

    Going from a twelve-pound to a five-pound trigger will, without fail, boost accuracy significantly. This is already being clearly demonstrated by superior qualification scores.

    The question is:

    Will this change also lead to a significant increase in UDs?

    We won’t know that for at least several years.

    We do know that accuracy and “safety” are mutually antagonistic.

    Ultra-light triggers do generate UDs, particularly in the hands of officers in departments with inadequate training budgets.

    Yet, ultra-heavy triggers are not compatible with any species of practical accuracy, with all the unhappy consequences noted above.

    Is five pounds about right?

    We’ll probably never know, and the argument will go on forever. In the interim, police chiefs need to make decisions!

    Of course, there is the usual gaggle of smug ignoramuses who say that accuracy and precision are inherently bad, because they increase officer efficiency and “deadliness.”

    No point in arguing with these clowns, but they do get their folderol printed!

    “There will always be statements that are absolutely true, but that defy rigorous proof. That is, we suspect they’re true, but we can never be absolutely sure. In fact, the foregoing applies to everything we think we know!

    Thus doubt is, and should be, endemic to all human reasoning. We can ‘know the truth,’ but we can never know that what we ‘know’ is the truth. We have to confront the fact that no matter how ‘sure’ we are of anything, we might be completely wrong!

    Mathematics is no refuge! Our naive hope for certainty is dashed as we discover that even mathematics is neither complete, nor consistent.

    There is a curtain beyond which we cannot see, and that cannot be lifted, neither by our philosophy, nor our science, nor our religion!”

    Math axiom

    /John




    Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Tokarev; 08-25-2021 at 03:14 PM.

  2. #2

  3. #3
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    It should lead to a better Glock and improved P O S T scores and should reduce misses when shooting at bad guys.

  4. #4
    As many of you know, nine years ago, two NYPD officers neutralized a shooter on a street outside the Empire State Building on a busy Friday morning.

    Reports say they fired sixteen rounds from “less than 10 feet”. One officer expended seven rounds and the other expended nine rounds.

    Reports after the fact said that 7 of the 16 rounds struck the perpetrator. Nine rounds did not.

    Three rounds directly hit innocent bystanders. It is unclear if any of those rounds passed through the perpetrator, or struck the bystanders directly.

    Six more bystanders were injured by either rounds or round fragments that deflected off hard objects, or spall from hard objects hit by stray rounds.

    One may speculate as to whether the bad guy vs innocent person score would have been quite different if the trigger weight were to normal Glock specification, rather than 12 pounds, but I submit that the outcome might have well been similar with, say, five pound triggers -if those officers didn’t get sight pictures or a proper index.

    Training matters.

  5. #5
    Finally someone gets it. the length of trigger travel is more important then the weight when it comes to preventing accidental discharges. If people keep their booger hooks off the bang switch this stuff would not happen. The average person in a startle reflex can easily put 20 or more pounds of pressure . A 12 pound trigger won't stop this. Keeping your finger off the trigger and proper muzzle management will. Rant over.

  6. #6
    My perspective as a firearms instructor on a large PD for more than two decades: very few of our NDs involved finger on the trigger when it shouldn't be/pull weight/etc. Our folks were well trained and good at indexing. The great majority of the NDs were intentional trigger presses when "dry" firing (or so they thought), or when incompetency met the Glock takedown procedure (mostly quite early in the Glock years, in the 90s).

    I had the misfortune of being in close personal proximity to four NDs over the years, and have a bit of hearing loss to show for it.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Mac View Post
    My perspective as a firearms instructor on a large PD for more than two decades: very few of our NDs involved finger on the trigger when it shouldn't be/pull weight/etc. Our folks were well trained and good at indexing. The great majority of the NDs were intentional trigger presses when "dry" firing (or so they thought), or when incompetency met the Glock takedown procedure (mostly quite early in the Glock years, in the 90s).

    I had the misfortune of being in close personal proximity to four NDs over the years, and have a bit of hearing loss to show for it.
    The Los Angeles County Sheriff's Office had a much different finding. Almost all of their NDs involved fingers on triggers.
    I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.

  8. #8
    Okay folks...

    They are issuing them to new recruit classes. Current officers are stuck with the same pistols they have been carrying.

    It's not a bunch of officers who have been running NY triggers that will now have standard triggers.

    The neighboring agency to me (roughly 250 sworn) went from NY triggers to standard triggers with no issues.
    I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.

  9. #9
    Member Glock1911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Mac View Post
    My perspective as a firearms instructor on a large PD for more than two decades: very few of our NDs involved finger on the trigger when it shouldn't be/pull weight/etc. Our folks were well trained and good at indexing. The great majority of the NDs were intentional trigger presses when "dry" firing (or so they thought), or when incompetency met the Glock takedown procedure (mostly quite early in the Glock years, in the 90s).

    I had the misfortune of being in close personal proximity to four NDs over the years, and have a bit of hearing loss to show for it.
    I too have been close to officers when ND occurred with NY trigger. Once in the locker room another on a B&E of auto and chase. Not a pleasant experience nor accompanying paperwork as an instructor. They weren’t in my training unit but were for remedial training.

  10. #10
    one foot in the gulag... blues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlw View Post
    Okay folks...

    They are issuing them to new recruit classes. Current officers are stuck with the same pistols they have been carrying.

    It's not a bunch of officers who have been running NY triggers that will now have standard triggers.

    The neighboring agency to me (roughly 250 sworn) went from NY triggers to standard triggers with no issues.


    I personally never found it gave me any issues going back to the standard trigger. I once preferred the NY trigger. Now I prefer the standard.


    (I can't swear that my original preference was based upon carrying revolvers for the first six years or so of my career, but it may enter into it.)
    There's nothing civil about this war

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