NYPD going to lighter trigger?

[1Rangemaster]

@jlw:
I have had read to me what supposedly is the NYPD “auto” CoF. Synopsis is a 50 round course, at 25, 15 and 7 yards.
Times&shots range from 3 rounds in 8 seconds at 25 to 2 rounds in 4 seconds at 7 yards. All strings from holster, I believe. There is at least one reload at 15 yards-2, reload, 1 in 12 seconds. The target was described as a “silhouette”. Looks like I was wrong on dropping the 25 yard string. No minimum score stated.
I will try and get an official copy, but as @HCM observed, firearms, shooting and talking about same seems to be, uh, “discouraged”, so to speak. It’s my sense it would be hard to be a “gun person” in that culture.
To get 40,000 people through two quals a year-boggles my mind…
I’ll advise if there is further information.

[Tokarev]

More from Farnham on this topic:

1 Sept 21



This is a note from my good friend, and esteemed colleague, Larry Mudgett, in response to my Quip on NYPD’s recent upgrade to five-pound Glock triggers.



Larry is a legend within our Art. I’ve learned much from him.



When Larry talks, I listen!



“As a young officer in the LAPD Academy (early 1970s), I was taught to keep my finger on the trigger of my revolver any time my gun was in my hand. If I were observed in a scenario training exercise with my finger off the trigger I was called-out as ‘not being ready.’



This was the background of the LAPD.



I became Chief Firearms Instructor for the LAPD. I was assigned to our Training Division for thirteen years at the end of my career.



There, I introduced Jeff Cooper’s Four Universal Safety Rules, and enforced them!



I helped to establish the concept within the LAPD that a discharge which involved a violation of one of the Universal Safety Rules was an act of negligence and worthy of discipline. These rules were pounded into both the recruits and in-service officers.



Officers who attended my Patrol Rifle School, my Tactical Shotgun Course, my Firearms Instructor Schools, or the Autopistol Transition Schools were held to strict standards regarding
safety rules.



Within a few years, the overwhelming majority of our officers had been ‘retrained’ regarding Cooper’s Rule Three:



‘Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target, and you intend to shoot.’



(LAPD’s version of the Rule, as modified by me.)



We accomplished this strict adherence to the rules initially with the DA autos. Officers were following the rules so well that accidental discharges were almost unknown. These habits were well established when we transitioned to 5.5-pound-trigger Glock pistols. Our accidental discharge incidents remained at almost zero.



I was asked to conduct limited training for another agency in Southern CA. I have only the greatest respect for this excellent organization. However, I did notice that officers often had their fingers on the trigger during tactical training situations, room-clearing, etc. Keeping ones finger off the trigger was obviously not a habit they had acquired. I did bring this to the attention of several supervisors. The response suggested that they were okay with this existing situation, stating, ‘That is okay, as we do not cover each other.’



With the M9 (Beretta) pistol, their accident rate remained low, as the DA M9 required a long trigger pull of about twelve pounds as I recall.



When this agency subsequently switched to Glocks, their accident rate went off the charts!



The common practice of having the finger on the trigger during searches, etc, resulted in a relative few ADs with the twelve-pound DA M9. When switching to the Glock, with its 5.5 pound trigger, the jump in accidents became a public news story! Everyone was scrambling to find out why they were having a major increase in accidents.



It was no secret to me! They had not made a habit of adhering to Rule 3. A 5.5 pound trigger is simply not as forgiving as a twelve-pound trigger.



If NYPD sees a jump in accidents with the switch to the 5.5 pound trigger, they need look no further than Rule-3 violations!



It was a major job to get the 10k officers of the LAPD to change their habits and keep their fingers off the trigger, but it was worth the effort. Creating new habits takes time and repetition, and it takes someone willing to hold peoples’ feet to the fire and make it happen.



It can be done.”



There is no doubt that Larry’s uncompromising insistence on correct gun-handling has prevented uncounted UDs. In so doing, Larry managed to ruffle feathers up and down the System, as you might imagine!



No matter how diplomatic you try to be, forward progress will always upset some people, terrify others!



/John




Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[TGS]

I'm assuming at one point that NYPD had more of a gun culture that encouraged practice, and I'm guessing that the ranges were consolidated at Rodman's neck when that ended due to a multitude of issues, probably including logistical stuff like health hazards on older unventilated ranges and whatnot.

Prior to that, where were the rest of NYPDs ranges? I don't remember seeing any ranges (or remnants of such) at Floyd Bennet Field when I did training there for a week.

The minimization of their available range facilities blows my mind. We use 3 just in the DC region for requalification purposes by probably ~700 agents...plus the training center hours away, which has 3-4 ranges just for residential course work.

[HCM]

I'm assuming at one point that NYPD had more of a gun culture that encouraged practice, and I'm guessing that the ranges were consolidated at Rodman's neck when that ended due to a multitude of issues, probably including logistical stuff like health hazards on older unventilated ranges and whatnot.

Prior to that, where were the rest of NYPDs ranges? I don't remember seeing any ranges (or remnants of such) at Floyd Bennet Field when I did training there for a week.

The minimization of their available range facilities blows my mind. We use 3 just in the DC region for requalification purposes by probably ~700 agents...plus the training center hours away, which has 3-4 ranges just for residential course work.

The current range was built in 1959 but NYPD has been using Rodman’s neck for training since the mid 1930s when it was military “camp”

NYPD special units and some federal agencies go up to Camp Smith a National all guard training facility north of the city.

[MichaelOrick]

I assume the NYPD wanted the heavier trigger to be "safer"?

Lots of ways to define, then measure, that.

Surfing the net I found an unintentional shooting rate for the "light" trigger Glock feds (DOJ) at about 38% of all shooting incidents over a 5 year period. For NYPD it was 15-20% depending on the years looked at.

So NYPD's heavier trigger seemed to work as intended in that regard?

Many others do better than both with lighter Glock triggers. NYPD will find out how they do, better or worse, with lighter Glock triggers.

Review of Shooting Incidents in the Department of Justice
E & I Report I-2004-010
September 2004

[HCM]

I assume the NYPD wanted the heavier trigger to be "safer"?

Lots of ways to define, then measure, that.

Surfing the net I found an unintentional shooting rate for the "light" trigger Glock feds (DOJ) at about 30% of all shooting incidents over a 5 year period. For NYPD it was 15-20% depending on the years looked at.

So NYPD's heavier trigger seemed to work as intended in that regard?

Many others do better than both with lighter Glock triggers. NYPD will find out how they do, better or worse, with lighter Glock triggers.

You are missing part of the equation. As discussed here multiple times, both the weight and the length of the trigger pull are factors with the length of the pull being more significant than the weight.

Though I find the 30% figure suspect, the DOJ elements with Glocks use the standard 5.5lb trigger which has a short length of pull (LOP).

Both the original 8lb NY trigger used by the NY state police and the 12lb NY plus used by NYPD have a longer trigger pull with resistance through out the LOP. That resistance through the entirety of the LOP is more significant to the lower UD rate than the weight difference.

With Gen3 and older Glocks it was popular to combine the normally 8lb NY trigger spring with the minus connector to give a 6lb trigger pull with resistance through the entire LOP. I would argue that 6lb trigger would provide the difference in results vs the standard 5.5lb as the 12lb abomination NYPD has forced on their officers for years.

[xtrtsqrt11]

At one point the NY-1 spring combined with a minus connector was a popular combo to get a "rolling break," however, it only works in gen 1-3 guns.

It was during my last Glock Armorer's course I was sent to (2006) that I saw this in a display model that was available for us to try. The instructor was Dennis Tueller, originator of the 21 foot rule.
He stated that it was primarily to solve the weak trigger return spring possibly breaking (the only Achilles heel of the Glock system he said). It did also do a wonderful job of making the trigger feel better, rather than like a, well, Glock. I also really liked the trigger return compared to stock, it just felt much more positive.
My Team's lead armorer tried for years to get those parts from Glock for the upgrade. He never did get them last time I asked him. We had all Gen 3 G22s at the time.

I haven't heard anything as far as later Gen Glocks not working with this setup.

It will be interesting to see how far this goes (other agencies following suit), hopefully it will be positive with the trigger reduction.

ETA: fixed a typo, clarification

[MichaelOrick]

You are missing part of the equation. As discussed here multiple times, both the weight and the length of the trigger pull are factors with the length of the pull being more significant than the weight.

Though I find the 30% figure suspect, the DOJ elements with Glocks use the standard 5.5lb trigger which has a short length of pull (LOP).

Not missing it, just focused on what NYPD seems to be focused on, the weight.

Things may get worse for them for either change (weight/LOP). Time will tell?

[HCM]

It was during my last Glock Armorer's course I was sent to (2006) that I saw this in a display model that was available for us to try. The instructor was Dennis Tueller, originator of the 21 foot rule.
He stated that it was primarily to solve the weak trigger return spring possibly breaking (the only Achilles heel of the Glock system he said). It did also do a wonderful job of making the trigger feel better, rather than like a, well, Glock. I also really liked the trigger return compared to stock, it just felt much more positive.
My Team's lead armorer tried for years to get those parts from Glock for the upgrade. He never did get them last time I asked him. We had all Gen 3 G22s at the time.

I haven't heard anything as far as later Gen Glocks not working with this setup.

It will be interesting to see how far this goes (other agencies following suit), hopefully it will be positive with the trigger reduction.

ETA: fixed a typo, clarification

Due to the change in internal geometry necessitated by the reduced grip diameter of the Gen 4 the NY/ minus connector combo did not produce good results in the Gen4 guns.

[HCM]

Not missing it, just focused on what NYPD seems to be focused on, the weight.

Things may get worse for them for either change (weight/LOP). Time will tell?

There is an argument to be made that what ever UD risk associated with the standard 5.5lb triggers will be balanced by increased hit potential. Given the crowded environment of NYC an the fact that every bullet fired hits something increased hit potential is, itself a form of safety.