The only thing that I remember about this subject is that when I shot a DT last I was shooting everything, including USPSA, with my irons sighted carry gun and I couldn't clean it at 7 yards.
The only thing that I remember about this subject is that when I shot a DT last I was shooting everything, including USPSA, with my irons sighted carry gun and I couldn't clean it at 7 yards.
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@LOKNLOD your points are well taken and either as a drill or a test, I think it is still basic which isn’t a bad thing it’s just a thing. I have no problem with Tee ball. I think some people think that’s the terminal goal.
The other thing I have noticed with the utilization of the drill by C/D is that they often will refer to it as aggregate
scoring as well without recognizing / realizing that they continue to have issues with a particular type of string over and over again. They just will say “44/50, pretty good!” But they were 0/6 on the same item again and again.
The lack of feedback and direct learning is why they don’t improve. Which is why complete aggregate often allows people to hide behind their strengths and ignore weaknesses.
Even imparting a modest time goal and tracking each string separately will give oodles of improvement over untimed.
The reason why I improve quickly is that I never waste an opportunity to improve. But in order to do that you need clear feedback.
Aggregate scoring is the least helpful for that.
Those times aren't an issue for me. The point of the drill for me is the focus on a wide range of mechanics in a set round count. There's nothing to be gained from adding time pressure. It would detract from the point of the drill/assessment.Originally Posted by JCN
It's Tee-ball, sure, fair enough. Do 300 burpees and 300 kettlebell swings first, and Tee-ball gets a lot harder. There are other, and IMO more applicable ways to induce stress than a timer on every drill.
Generally I agree with your assessment that people criticizing speed are doing it from a point of weakness and/or cope but I can't agree with you on this one. Sometimes working mechanics and just mechanics is enough.
I think that’s a good question and deserves some clarification.
Do special forces units hire USPSA GMs for their tactics?
No.
Do they hire them? Yes.
I would absolutely take a non-shooting shooting class to learn the tactical side.
From the pure shooting aspect, this is something you might not want to hear and might not accept as truth.
But the more automaticity you have in shooting ability, the easier it is to do the things you’re listing at a higher level.
The ability to know if you can hit a target at what distance at what speed comes from that.
As an aside, I do practice shooting retention and revolver shooting from inside concealment.
Just because I’m good at USPSA stuff doesn’t mean I don’t do other stuff too. Around vehicles, low / no light. Etc.
And I can tell you the better I am at simple stuff, the better I am at complicated stuff. That seems to be an accepted caveat of tactical trainers. Where we differ might be “how much skill is acceptable.”
My view is why not get as good as you can within the time and resources you can? You can spend 10 min on Dot Torture untimed or 10 min spent timed with string and component tracking. Consistent feedback is crucial to improvement and doesn’t take any additional training time so why wouldn’t you.
That’s why I think 3 yards is actually more useful in order to get feedback in the ballpark of the skill.
Completely disagree with “nothing to be gained.”
Otherwise there’s no point in transitions on the drill. Or reloads with no time pressure.
If it’s a marksmanship drill, do 25 yard B8 black for 50 shots or 10 shots in a 1” circle at 5 yards. But transitions without a time parameter is just shooting the same target without a transition at all. Same thing with no time reload. You might as well count the time you reloaded your gun yesterday.
You could run the whole dot torture in dry with a timer a few times per week and be better off in a month.
This is the John Hearne chart
Expert is like B-level.
Respectable but often still with disconnect of gauging ability at speed with shots that don’t end up where they wanted or thought they would go. Often with hesitation and conscious thought required to execute some things smoothly.
I see this keeps popping up and I'm not sure where it's coming from, but it's backward. Your brain will prioritize those "other things" regardless of your ability to subconsciously execute with the handgun. Running the gun is what will be relegated to subconscious levels under survival pressure.
"I couldn't make the shoot/no-shoot decision because I was too focused on my trigger press" is simply not a thing. It's the opposite, which is why subconscious ability to execute the physical skills is important.
Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.
Sounds about right. Although I must say that I love John Hearne but I think certain aspects of the chart are questionable. (Certainly better than I'd ever create, so kudos to John for making it). But by way of example, at the time I was still a Sharpshooter in IDPA I also shot a 13.75 Casino (clean) in Givens' Instructor class, where I was also Top Gun of the class. So I think I have what we call in education a "scattering of skills" in some areas.This is the John Hearne chart
Expert is like B-level.
Respectable but often still with disconnect of gauging ability at speed with shots that don’t end up where they wanted or thought they would go. Often with hesitation and conscious thought required to execute some things smoothly.
Regarding the classes from my earlier post (and your reply), I mostly agree. And sometimes I forget that there are other types of classes out there, such as those taught by some of the top gamers out there.
I think one reason people may take a lot of those classes and still struggle in competition is that they take the class to take the class but don't necessarily do the homework. I've been guilty of that at times, and I'm sure most people are, at least sometimes. Some people take classes just to have a weekend away from the family, after all!
How about “I didn’t realize my gun was empty” because all the bandwidth was sucked up.
Or “I couldn’t reload my magazine or reloaded it backwards” because it wasn’t well trained enough.
It’s the issue that when the gun or shots don’t go as expected that it fucks their OODA loop and they shift their conscious attention to it rather than solving it automatically.
It also leads to people shooting at things they shouldn’t shoot at because they aren’t able to judge their own abilities accurately.
Do you really not know where this is coming from?
And a response to his quote:
I obviously agree....we just needed a genius in our midst to put the whole thing together. We need to talk on the different part of the brain thing.......I have a hypothesis I want to run by you. If it sounds logical to you, I will make some phone calls to "those guys" and get some confirmation.
Three yards is a very basic level. I cleaned it at 3 yards on demand (in Todd's class) on my second attempt ever with iron sighted G19 when I was a C with a 6+ sec FAST shot in that same class. Failing it at 3 does provide some feedback about skill level, passing not so much.
The way I remember, it was meant to be a continuum. Clear it at 3 - go check if your fundamentals are still good at 5. Good at 5, shoot at 7. By then it became a formidable task, considering we all shot irons with regular triggers then.
Doesn't read posts longer than two paragraphs.
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