Why (untimed) dot torture is like Tee ball

[vcdgrips]

This is where is threads like this start to break down:

David S asked you (JCN) how much formal training to do you have. I understood and I think you understood the question to mean firearms formal training.

You response based on my recollection of your response(s) to this question in other threads was not responsive as the thousands of hours you reference pertain to other types of training, NOT firearms training. If I am mistaken , please explain and I will stand corrected.


A more direct and transparent response would have looked like:

"I have no formal firearms training in a classroom/range setting conducted by someone else. I have harnessed my thousands of hours of other training experiences from other realms in a self taught firearms program which has led my from novice to GM in 2 ish years. Moreover, I am 43 and I never shot a pistol until I was 40."

See the difference......



As to the named example made popular by our founder TLG (RIP) ---A timed Dot Torture Test which includes speed reholstering is a recipe for disaster and could create training scars leading to conduct that is profoundly unsound on a tactical basis.

I completely agree that timed exercises can be useful to establish baseline against which progress can be tracked on a regular, consistent and comparable manner.

[JCN]

I was always a good hitter. Of the ball. I think that implies hand eye coordination. Wich is what maybe makes or breaks your skill level?

It definitely helps. But trigger coordination is maybe a little more specialized than most hand / eye endeavors? It seems specialized enough that most people require specific practice with that specific skill.

There’s also a common sentiment that most people without a physical handicap can make M level in USPSA so it doesn’t seem like physical ability is the limiting factor for most people in becoming proficient with a handgun. Most of it is mental limitation / lack of curiosity/ lack of a process for ongoing improvement and feedback.

[MickAK]

Tee ball. At what point do you test for weaknesses WHEN the pressure is on? I’m not saying it’s not a good drill. But it’s very basic and if you stop there, you stop there.

It's a warm up/assessment drill for me and I would guess for others. Why would you stop at a warm up/assessment? You test for weaknesses with time pressure on once you've ensured the basic mechanics are sound. If you're saying that it isn't possible to check basic mechanics without time pressure I would disagree.

Calling it Teeball is just inflammatory for no good purpose.

[JCN]

Curious, How much formal training do you have?

And how much of that involves instructional design, adult learning, teaching etc rather than shooting?

Being a gifted athlete doesn’t necessarily make you a competent coach. Magic Johnson being a classic example. One of the most gifted and successful players ever but an abject failure as a coach.

@vcdgrips these are the two questions that were asked in quick succession.

Note that @HCM asked about background in learning and education.

I answered that question and I asked @David S about his background in learning and education.

Do you not see the irony that actually where “threads like this start to break down” is from David’s question.

He did not answer his own question nor address the actual topic discussed in the post.

There are people here that have taken many high level classes that continue to shoot at a D/C level. Either the instruction was poor or the student was. Either way, number of hours spent in classes doesn’t correlate well with ability and achievement.

With regards to education and mastery, I have both of those well covered. That ability to break down and eliminate waste in training is why I was able to progress quickly and help others as well.

A timed Dot Torture Test which includes speed reholstering is a recipe for disaster and could create training scars leading to conduct that is profoundly unsound on a tactical basis.

I completely agree that timed exercises can be useful to establish baseline against which progress can be tracked on a regular, consistent and comparable manner.

If I were to design improvement in Dot Torture, it would look something like this:

Timed dot torture:
Shot at 3 yards. Each string is timed separately because only time on task counts and matters (not reholstering).

Pick a speed that you feel you could execute a string 9 out of 10 times successfully.

Run each string on a shot timer and write down your draw and split times for each string.

Goal minimum acceptable performance would be draws (open holster) in 1.5 seconds and follow up freestyle shots in less than 0.4 seconds. Concealment allows an extra 0.25s. Freestyle transitions also are only allowed 0.4 seconds or less.

Weak / strong hand splits must be under 0.7 seconds.

Any string you fail to meet time or accuracy standards, you must practice those preferentially before running the whole drill again.

—-

What it achieves that the original untimed or the aggregate timing drill doesn’t is that it lets you break down and practice not just the accuracy component but the accuracy at speed component getting you used to slow pitch at least with a context of minimum standard. Nobody should be reholstering fast and no drill should have reholstering on a clock.

[JCN]

It's a warm up/assessment drill for me and I would guess for others. Why would you stop at a warm up/assessment? You test for weaknesses with time pressure on once you've ensured the basic mechanics are sound. If you're saying that it isn't possible to check basic mechanics without time pressure I would disagree.

Calling it Teeball is just inflammatory for no good purpose.

Why would you have a 50 round warm up?

There’s a reason why many defensive drills are meant to be shot cold without warm up.

I don’t think many self defense shootings allow for warm up time.

If you don’t know your speed / accuracy cold… doesn’t it seem like that’d be a good warm up?

Untimed / liberally timed warm up is Tee ball because it is ridiculously basic. With even a moderate but trackable parameter you can get so much more out of it.

Try your warmup with the time parameters I suggested. They’re not very stringent but you can highlight weaknesses that are out of proportion to the others.

[Kirk]

I'm not going to question a USPSA GM regarding the amount of "formal training" he has personally, as he has proven that he is a badass with a handgun. Much like I wouldn't question a legitimate BJJ blackbelt from a solid lineage how much formal training he has lol. I think for a more skilled audience, JCN's point makes sense; though there is no doubt that beginners/intermediates can likely derive some benefits out of the plain dot torture as is.

My question for JCN - how can I make the dot torture a better drill? I know your post is largely about untimed drills in general and the DT was just an example used, but I'm curious how you'd make the dot torture an advanced drill. What changes would you make specifically? I was thinking that for most higher level shooters here, 10 yards with specific par times would be pretty beast. 10 yards seems a decent distance for many of us, but I'm trying to figure out particular par times and would love your input. I think something like the dot torture with par at 10 yards could function as a really good test, is pretty efficient at only 50 rounds, and can be run indoors too.

[JCN]

Most people who remain C/D shooters are not able to either critically self assess their weaknesses or willingly choose to ignore them because it make them feel better about themselves.

I’ve run into a number of excellent self taught shooters at the range and in competition and bar none, they were curious people who liked the process of learning.

Invariably, the people who remain C/D level shooting after more than a few years are either complacent or desire to just practice their strengths. No amount of classes or formal instruction will give them more than a small blip on the radar.

Part of my fun experiment I have going on in the training journal section is taking 10 chronic C/D shooters and seeing how far they can get with directed coaching and about 1-2 hours a WEEK of dry fire.

I’ve done it with a couple individual students so far and both were able to break through their previous plateaus quickly and decisively by getting more specific feedback and goals defined.

[JCN]

Timed dot torture:
Shot at 3 yards. Each string is timed separately because only time on task counts and matters (not reholstering).

Pick a speed that you feel you could execute a string 9 out of 10 times successfully.

Run each string on a shot timer and write down your draw and split times for each string.

Goal minimum acceptable performance would be draws (open holster) in 1.5 seconds and follow up freestyle shots in less than 0.4 seconds. Concealment allows an extra 0.25s. Freestyle transitions also are only allowed 0.4 seconds or less.

Weak / strong hand splits must be under 0.7 seconds.

Any string you fail to meet time or accuracy standards, you must practice those preferentially before running the whole drill again.

—-

What it achieves that the original untimed or the aggregate timing drill doesn’t is that it lets you break down and practice not just the accuracy component but the accuracy at speed component getting you used to slow pitch at least with a context of minimum standard. Nobody should be reholstering fast and no drill should have reholstering on a clock.

@Kirk see above for like B level.

I'm not going to question a USPSA GM regarding the amount of "formal training" he has personally, as he has proven that he is a badass with a handgun. Much like I wouldn't question a legitimate BJJ blackbelt from a solid lineage how much formal training he has lol. I think for a more skilled audience, JCN's point makes sense; though there is no doubt that beginners/intermediates can likely derive some benefits out of the plain dot torture as is.

My question for JCN - how can I make the dot torture a better drill? I know your post is largely about untimed drills in general and the DT was just an example used, but I'm curious how you'd make the dot torture an advanced drill. What changes would you make specifically? I was thinking that for most higher level shooters here, 10 yards with specific par times would be pretty beast. 10 yards seems a decent distance for many of us, but I'm trying to figure out particular par times and would love your input. I think something like the dot torture with par at 10 yards could function as a really good test, is pretty efficient at only 50 rounds, and can be run indoors too.

This is where I can help because you don’t know what you don’t know. I’m assuming the target is one where the whole drill is on one sheet of copy paper.

I wouldn’t move it any farther back than 3 yards, I’d cut the time instead.

The times I gave above are for B level or so and should be able to be done cold on demand 9/10 times.

In the example I posted, my 1.0s draw with approximate 0.20-0.25 split with bullet holes touching. That kind of accuracy scales to a 7 yard head box on demand.

So I would start with the time parameters I suggested and find out where your weak areas are.

Then dry fire them and then live fire them with the goal being continued dot stability at speed.

If you see the shot, you take the shot. For my 1.04 s draw, I knew I had the shot and took it. More time would not have helped because my vision and mechanics were there.

So work on the parts leading up to the trigger press to get the dot or irons as stable as possible on target as soon as possible. That’ll translate to good things.

But wherever you are, keep working on making it better. Marching components of the drills down in time while maintaining accuracy is the name of the game.

I am not a tactician so I will leave it to those guys. But I would imagine the ability to accurately put rounds rapidly on a small, close target would be more useful than doing bullseye type stuff at 10 yards. At the speed and accuracy of my first string on the 2” dot, that level of vision scales out to an A zone body at 15 yards.

So you can get good at distance by demanding accuracy even close up.

But without active timing and recoil management as well as transitions, you’re missing the dynamic aspect.

[LOKNLOD]

I think it's a mistake to consider Dot Torture a "drill" at all. Forgive a bit of a semantics game, but in the firearms training context a drill is task designed to be repeated (drilled?) to build automaticity of some specific skill or set of skills. When benchmarking is applied via time and accuracy standards, many drills can be used as tests, i.e., Gabe's use of various failure response drills as class tests after much repetition, but not all tests make good drills - notably for all us PF'ers the good ol' FAST test is not intended to be a drill but rather a test, as it's set up to test certain skills in a certain order that may not really be what you want to drill in as habit.

Dot Torture is a test. It's an untimed test of a broad set of basic fundamentals, building in complexity (not that it ever gets terribly complex, but it does build upward). You can adjust the difficulty of the test by increasing the distance. Secondarily, it is a subtle mental composure test - as you start basic and build up, there's a lot of mental pressure buildup and it's easy enough for many folks to Jedi-mind-fuck themselves into making a mistake as the pressure mounts.

What it doesn't do, is repeat any one skill with enough structured repetition to build it. One might argue that you still have to get 50 solidly good shots in, and that's true. But if that's all your after shooting all manner of other dot drills might be a better choice. The extra complications as DT moves along are just enough to make good assessment of what you're doing wrong difficult, especially for the kind of shooters who might struggle with DT in the first place - usually newer shooters -- and likely aren't the best at self diagnosis. "I dropped one during the 1 reload 1 string, i better practice my reloads" - is that the right call? Maybe, but probably not... This is the reason a lot of more experienced shooters who many don't struggle to clean it, but perhaps also can't consider it a gimme - do use it as a "warm up". It's a test that provides something to latch onto to guide structure for the rest of the session. However when i do this it always just tells me I need to work on my one-handed shooting

If I were to restructure the DT, I'd call it the Dot Torture Test, I'd change the order so that the two one-hand strings are last after all the two-handed work which would still ramp from basic accuraccy from the ready, all the way to transitions and reloads. It would be a 40-round pass-fail test. Then if you clean it, you'd get the bonus round for the strong hand and weak hand only shooting. So a passing score is 40. Anything less than that is a hard fail, and if you can't score the 40 there's not much point trying the single handed bonus rounds. The goal, overall, is still 50. And for a hard charger experienced guy, anything less that that is still a fail in his mind. That wouldn't change. But as a tool, for testing mostly novices, a 40 is a solid score baseline to encourage folks while incentivizing improvement of the single-handed skills.

A timed out version of that, would be an additional level of test. Once you have both time and distance variables, there's a million ways to skin the cat. But I still think it's a test...

[43Under]

I don't necessarily disagree with the basic premise of this thread. Not a huge fan of Dot Torture anyway.

But I am intrigued by @JCN's constant "biases" for lack of a better term, presupposing that everyone should be on the same path he is.

I'm one of those people who has taken tons of "tactical" classes. I don't shoot USPSA, but I am rated Expert in most IDPA divisions. Not sure what that might equate to in USPSA. Don't much care. Whatever.

But I don't take "tactical classes" to become a GM level USPSA shooter.

Skills I have learned in classes that are sort of incongruent with USPSA shooting include:

1. Shooting safely around others.
2. Clearing a room/structure.
3. Shooting in low-light/no light scenarios
4. PROPER use of cover (no fault lines in real life)
5. Shooting in/around/from vehicles
6. Shooting from retention (there's no way you have a retention position built in to your sub-second draw).
7. Shooting while entangled with others
8. WHEN to draw/when to shoot (legally)
9. "Tactical anatomy" (for lack of a better term).
10. Target discrimination

Among others....

Hopefully you get the idea. SOME of us take "tactical classes" because we are more interested (and have more use for) the application of marksmanship in much more dynamic environments (such as real life would provide) than are offered in matches. I shoot matches to work on the skills that matches can assist with, and to just have fun (imagine that). I don't have the curiosity to do the things you suggest because they do not apply to me.

Maybe you should take A class and see what it's like before you essentially accuse people of wasting their money (Bolke and Dobbs would be a great start!). At least that's what I inferred from some of your comments here and in other threads.