Why (untimed) dot torture is like Tee ball

[JCN]

I don't disagree. If I'm working on pure precision marksmanship and the trigger press I'm much more impressed with working that at 25 yards at a B8 than at a 1" or 2" dot close up. At least with the former I know my holds and what I can do at 25 yards. One holing at 7 yards doesn't come close IMO. (note I am way more likely to hunt with a handgun than shoot a match with one)

Holds and holdover for sure. That’s why I zero at 25 because I want complete confidence of where it’s going to end up.

But from a pure mechanical PRECISION (not accuracy) standpoint, a 1” at 7 yards should get the same respect as a head box at 25.

I thought this was a brilliant demonstration.



From my own pace and timing, it is the same vision and mechanics. Whether the gun is zeroed there is a different story so your holdover point is well taken and I agree.



These are coincidentally the same mechanics I use on a 1” at 7.

Compared to a B8 for size reference.

[BehindBlueI's]

But from a pure mechanical PRECISION (not accuracy) standpoint, a 1” at 7 yards should get the same respect as a head box at 25.

Personally, I find small targets at longer distances very fatiguing because it's an exercise in eyesight for me. Especially on an indoor range and with printed black/white targets. I would rather shoot 1" circles at 7-10y because I can see them without the pure effort it takes to see a 3x5 at 25y in the lighting/uncleared smoke/etc. Outside it's less of an issue.

[MickAK]

Personally, I find small targets at longer distances very fatiguing because it's an exercise in eyesight for me. Especially on an indoor range and with printed black/white targets. I would rather shoot 1" circles at 7-10y because I can see them without the pure effort it takes to see a 3x5 at 25y in the lighting/uncleared smoke/etc. Outside it's less of an issue.

Do your eyes get tired or is it the stress of focusing that hard? I was thinking of making a vision relaxation techniques thread as this seems to come up a lot.

[JCN]

Personally, I find small targets at longer distances very fatiguing because it's an exercise in eyesight for me. Especially on an indoor range and with printed black/white targets. I would rather shoot 1" circles at 7-10y because I can see them without the pure effort it takes to see a 3x5 at 25y in the lighting/uncleared smoke/etc. Outside it's less of an issue.

Irons or dots?

I’m totally with you on the irons. I really don’t like shooting them indoors due to lighting. It was one of my seminal observations that had me change to dots when I realized how difficult the vision was for me with irons in lower light / lower contrast.

When I was doing 100 yard unsupported shots for an online challenge I picked the VTAC because of the excellent contrast.



I also picked the fastest 357 Sig ammo I had so I wouldn’t have to deal with as much bullet drop, lol.

[BehindBlueI's]

Do your eyes get tired or is it the stress of focusing that hard?

Focusing and finding the contrast.

Irons or dots?

Irons. I'm still very new to dots. Note I've got good distance vision. I think I'm still like 25/20 or so. I am partially colorblind, however, and it's much more apparent in less than ideal lighting.

[JHC]

Holds and holdover for sure. That’s why I zero at 25 because I want complete confidence of where it’s going to end up.

But from a pure mechanical PRECISION (not accuracy) standpoint, a 1” at 7 yards should get the same respect as a head box at 25.

I thought this was a brilliant demonstration.



From my own pace and timing, it is the same vision and mechanics. Whether the gun is zeroed there is a different story so your holdover point is well taken and I agree.



These are coincidentally the same mechanics I use on a 1” at 7.

Compared to a B8 for size reference.

Sure.

1" at 7 yds may be the headbox @ 25 equal from a trigger press and that's a good place for me to work with understudy guns. I don't think it addresses the firearm's precision as well. I had a 1911 that one holed at 7 but shot soccerball sized groups out at 25.
That harsh mistress of geometry et al.

Similarly two guns that seem equals at 25 may look very different when the range stretches to 50. Barrel qualities and other things come into play.

It would be mostly academic but for I shoot a variety of guns and none of them have optics so the holds is a self inflicted challenge.

[JCN]

Sure.

1" at 7 yds may be the headbox @ 25 equal from a trigger press and that's a good place for me to work with understudy guns. I don't think it addresses the firearm's precision as well. I had a 1911 that one holed at 7 but shot soccerball sized groups out at 25.
That harsh mistress of geometry et al.

Similarly two guns that seem equals at 25 may look very different when the range stretches to 50. Barrel qualities and other things come into play.

It would be mostly academic but for I have a shoot a variety of guns and none of them have optics so the holds is a self inflicted challenge.

I think that’s fair. You lose a lot of resolution ability on a 1” target especially after the second or third shot chews up the target edges. I think a lot of it comes from the lack of resolution. You have to be completely within the 1” border and even an edge hit is a flier at that distance.

It’s one of the reasons (I agree with you) that I zero at 25. I just can’t tell if something is a little off at 7 but it’s very clear at 25.

[JCN]

Irons. I'm still very new to dots. Note I've got good distance vision. I think I'm still like 25/20 or so. I am partially colorblind, however, and it's much more apparent in less than ideal lighting.

The older I get and the stiffer my eyes get, the more I have to work to see a front sight and try and notice a distant target accurately. I can definitely feel the strain. I figured dots were inevitable for me so I embraced them.

It was an added benefit that it really helped my iron shooting as a side effect.

[David S.]

I sincerely appreciate your contribution and willingness to mentor P-F folks to Get Better(TM).

It’s worth noting that this line of reasoning is a well beaten path around here. It has been discussed to death back when Bolke, Weems, Hearne, Givens, Green, Keepers, Werner, Haggard, SouthNarc, White, TLG, Sean, and a bunch of others were active.

[JMS]

than a whole host of GMs from the internut.

I shudder think of of having to carry a fat asshole like Max Klatt, once he inevitably got hit because he was too busy trying to jar a chunk of kielbasa from an artery to realize that rounds were inbound.