Vans (minivans, MPVs, cargo, passenger, crew, sprinter, transit, etc.)

[Eugene]

My experience with AWD has been in the 06 RAV4 and 03 GX470. The RAV4 is a front wheel drive system but I never felt that I was loosing steering and there were a few times I had to plow through a ton of snow at an intersection turn (where they never plow it seems).

Did you actually loose traction? With decent tires and not so crazy driving you don't loose traction that often, it was just those rare cases that when you did the AWD made the situation worse. There are other AWD systems that are better than the overrunning clutches ours had but no where near as good as having a pull the lever transfer case that locks the front and back together.
03 and 06 are new enough to have traction control so you may have that kick in if you do break the front end loose. I find it best when buying a new vehicle to go find an empty place to test breaking traction to see how it handles. You would be surprised at how many people can break traction without even feeling it or realizing it, or how many people attribute modern braking ability to ABS and then freak out when ABS actually engages because the car feels different and then you realize they never actually used ABS before, I find the same with traction control and AWD systems.

[rob_s]

We made the minivan mistake, the popular Dodge/Plemon/Chrysler one. Couldn't carry anything without removing seats so you have to leave your kids somewhere or make two trips.

but the truck I can carry 6 people plus a load in the bed where the minivan was either people or cargo.

It seems weird to me that someone would buy a minivan and then be shocked that they have to fold/remove seats to get the larger cargo carrying capacity. That seems like it’s pretty clear right from the git.

[4RNR]

Did you actually loose traction? With decent tires and not so crazy driving you don't loose traction that often, it was just those rare cases that when you did the AWD made the situation worse. There are other AWD systems that are better than the overrunning clutches ours had but no where near as good as having a pull the lever transfer case that locks the front and back together.
03 and 06 are new enough to have traction control so you may have that kick in if you do break the front end loose. I find it best when buying a new vehicle to go find an empty place to test breaking traction to see how it handles. You would be surprised at how many people can break traction without even feeling it or realizing it, or how many people attribute modern braking ability to ABS and then freak out when ABS actually engages because the car feels different and then you realize they never actually used ABS before, I find the same with traction control and AWD systems.

Honestly I don't remember but I never had an oh shit moment. Don't remember if it had traction control but all my cars that did were never AWD/4WD because you knew when that thing kicked in. Has this grinding noise and a feeling that the car lost power.

The AWD being better than a 4x4 will depend on the car. I thought so too but after driving my 4x4 for the last 3 years I found the Lexus GX470 AWD to be better overall. Just start the car and go. Don't need to pay attention to speed or road conditions. My township does a fairly crappy job at plowing but 3 miles away is a different township and they do an excellent job. I mean this is night and day difference. They're so thorough their main roads are just wet while ours still have half a foot of snow. So as I'm driving I'm pretty much on the lever. 4wd on....4wd off.....4wd on....and so on. Sometimes the highways were fairly well plowed and mostly just wet. So you're cruising along in 2wd and suddenly there's a large snow drift or a section not done and your over 60mph ...In the GX it didn't matter. But that AWD system is different from the typical front wheel drive/part time AWD. And those SUVs can legitimately off road

Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk

[JRB]

Rule #1 about winter driving - Good winter tire choices affect stopping, going, and steering. AWD/4wd choices largely only affect 'going'. So if you expect AWD to save you from yourself on summer tires in 6in of snow, you're wrong.
For winter driving, if I had to choose between proper winter tires on a FWD or RWD vehicle vs AWD/4WD with summer tires, I'd take the 2wd with winter tires every time.

@Eugene
Picking up the bread crumbs, you had a 3.3L pushrod Chrysler AWD minivan (dates it to 90's-early00's) with a Haldex AWD and that's basically the worst AWD combo ever made and its silly bullshit continues to infect people's ideas of what's good and what isn't. So please parse your experiences with a proverbial 'grain of salt' and consider AWD systems in modern vehicles as a totally different thing.

FWD/RWD 'based' ultimately means nothing - how the transfer case and center diff are set up to split torque between the front and rear axle dictates everything. More 'RWD' based 4wd designs are actual 4wd transfer cases with a center diff lock and nice stuff like that.
But even the lowly Rav4 AWD had a center diff lock for most of its variations, meaning a Rav4's '4hi' setting was absolutely just as effective as the majority of other 4x4's in 4wd hi lock when it came to power distribution - the exception being things like Triple locked Rubicons and Land Cruisers aside, of course. Meanwhile, the majority of early auto trans Subarus were 80% front 20% rear all the time despite being 'RWD based' - significantly inferior to a locked center diff if we're talking about snow or mud.

Virtually every modern AWD CUV/Minivan/etc has a myriad of torque management strategies that you'll basically never see a Haldex clusterfuck sort of experience to occur ever again. It's perpetually set on 'Save this dumb ass Karen from herself' sort of stuff, and I honestly think it's doubtful that most folks would ever know the difference between one or another for most "normal" winter driving within sensible performance limits.

To that same end, modern ABS based traction control on modern FWD models would surprise you with good winter tires in most inclement weather conditions.

TL;DR; "get winter tires and don't drive like a dumbass" will solve the overwhelming majority of 'problems' requiring AWD/4WD for most people.

My sister bought a used Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid a few months ago and loves it, despite the fact it has spent almost as much time in the shop as on the road. It ranks at the bottom of all the consumer reports type reliability ratings. Chrysler has responded by rebranding the non hybrid version the Voyager.

Pros:
Drives extremely well and has a very refined quasi luxurious initial feel.
Plug-in hybrid has ~30 mile range on electric plus another ~450 on gasoline.
Electricity costs less than $30/month for her ~500 commute miles
30+ mpg on gasoline only
Saves 30/min each way thanks to the carpool sticker
Jumped to the front of the line of those waiting for a parking spot in the state parking structure.
Can leave the car & A/C running on electric while you run into the store/bank, leaving kids/dogs behind.

Cons:
Reliability & durability!
The small 12v battery failed while driving and left the car stalled in the road, unable to move out of drive, and bizarrely unable to turn the car off (it kept turning itself back on). Dealer says a software update fixed this particular bug, but it had been at the dealership 2 weeks prior without getting that update?
Dash pad bubbles when driving above 8000' elevation
Steering wheel trim is delaminating
Back seat infotainment system crashes constantly
Frequent coolant leaks (and there are 3 separate cooling systems)
Powered rear liftgate likes to freeze for no reason
Electric parking brake is buggy
Dealerships are horrendous. Takes ~2 weeks to get a service appointment and at least another week for them to diagnose & get parts (which are never in stock). All 3 dealers in the area are similarly bad.

And this may be more normal for today's cars, but the coolant temperature routinely hits over 230°F climbing grades without any sort of warning (you have to cycle pretty far through the digital dash's customization to even show coolant temp). Is this normal for modern cars @JRB ?

Newer vehicles sometimes are designed to run that hot. It's weird as hell to me too. Higher pressure radiator caps and very consistent cooling throughout the engine is needed but hypothetically the higher operating temp is more efficient thermodynamically, supposedly, but my college career ended just after Physics II so I'll leave that to smarter people to explain.

Edit:

My experience with AWD has been in the 06 RAV4 and 03 GX470. The RAV4 is a front wheel drive system but I never felt that I was loosing steering and there were a few times I had to plow through a ton of snow at an intersection turn (where they never plow it seems).

The GX couldn't tell the difference between 4ft of snow or mid July. It just drove.

Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk

The Rav4 with a locked center diff is pretty good - but the GX470/GX460 is simply spectacular. The Lexus GX is a Land Cruiser Prado chassis with a gas V8 and a Tuxedo. Literally world-class go-anywhere. The Lexus LX similarly is just a Land Cruiser (80, 100, or 200 series depending on model year) with the same 'Tuxedo' treatment.

[Eugene]

It seems weird to me that someone would buy a minivan and then be shocked that they have to fold/remove seats to get the larger cargo carrying capacity. That seems like it’s pretty clear right from the git.

Was young and dumb, just got married and the in-laws told us how great minivans are (they probably wanted us to fill the seats). Turns out they paid for a lot of things so they never needed to haul much.

[deputyG23]

One thing Chrysler seems to do right is mini-vans other than the Pacifica Hybrid. The V6 versions are solid. We're on our third Chysler van and all of them have gone 100K+ miles without any major trips to the shop. Our old '08 is sill in the hands of our daughter and will make it's second trip back up the Alcan Highway from Washington to Alaska.. it will pass 200K miles on the trip north. The absolute biggest reason my wife continues to buy mini-vans, even though we have no kids at home, is the stow-and-go seats. I don't even recall if she's had those seats back up this summer, but when it comes time to run to the airport and grab six people it only takes a minute to convert.

76 landscaping shrubs in her van. She did this four times this summer for our retail greenhouse. BTW, when the seats are up you can hide thousands of rounds of ammo and several SBR's in the wells where the seats fold into

Our '08 Town and Country LX is still going strong at 177K. It has needed work on occasion but has never left anyone stranded.
I would like to get a newer T&C or Dodge Caravan but the wife likes the old one and will not consider it.
If I were restricted to one vehicle, a minivan would be the most versatile choice for me.
I have hauled various stringed and brass musical instruments in the back well that the third seat folds into and range gear in the well that the "Stow and Go" seats would fold into if mine were so equipped.

[Doc_Glock]

I just returned a Pacifica after a four day rental and I have changed my mind about it, especially after driving the Toyota and Honda competitors recently. I really liked the overall driving experience of the Pacifica. It is extremely quiet and does all minivan tasks without complaint and it is easy to live with.

Who knows about durability? Chrysler products in particular, I think are the lowest quality of American brands but they clearly put a lot of thought in to this van. I would happily drive it as a company car or as a car under warranty.

[rob_s]

[fly out]

Anyone have any experience with the MB Metris?

[OlongJohnson]

Rule #1 about winter driving - Good winter tire choices affect stopping, going, and steering. AWD/4wd choices largely only affect 'going'. So if you expect AWD to save you from yourself on summer tires in 6in of snow, you're wrong.
For winter driving, if I had to choose between proper winter tires on a FWD or RWD vehicle vs AWD/4WD with summer tires, I'd take the 2wd with winter tires every time.

Newer vehicles sometimes are designed to run that hot. It's weird as hell to me too. Higher pressure radiator caps and very consistent cooling throughout the engine is needed but hypothetically the higher operating temp is more efficient thermodynamically, supposedly, but my college career ended just after Physics II so I'll leave that to smarter people to explain.

A Miata with the Torsen diff and decent all-season Michelins on the way to the ski lift with skis sticking out the passenger window can drive right past 4x4 trucks that are spinning all four and going nowhere. I imagine actual winter tires and an ABS car would be even better.

Not claiming to be smarter, but higher coolant temps means less delta-T between the fire and the coolant, so fewer BTUs move from the fire to the coolant.