Selection Bias in Drill Performance

[Paul D]

I respect your recognizing your time and effort limitations. I think that is totally honorable and you’re a good enough shooter to defend yourself in almost all handgun scenarios.

With regard to virtue signaling, if you look at the training journal threads…

It’s about helping those who want help.



This is a one take video I did for the coaching thread to demonstrate scaling vision.

And I bought an AimCam for the express purpose of being able to coach better so people could see what I see.



And to demonstrate the difference in vision between a close versus more technical target in slo mo.



I’ve put my time and money where my mouth is to help others who want help.

If you have some time, this thread pretty much explains what I’m about.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....raining-thread

Attachment 83569

If your intentions are truly to help those who want it, I apologize for calling your contributions as disguised virtual signaling. I'm sorry. However, I think you can make your point without besmirching other trainers' contribution to our shooting knowledge and innovations. His contribution to the shooting community (training, innovations with the B92, etc) is huge. Basically I took your comment about the video as: "That guy can't shoot a 5.0 sec FAST. His value as a teacher/contributor is now downgraded because he cannot shoot better than me on demand. If he cannot perform and demand GM level shooting from his students, he is not to be fully trusted. Because of this he is undermining your growth!" Of course I'm being hyperbolic/sarcastic but I think you can your message out better.

[vcdgrips]

1. Maya Angelou- "Remember this because it will happen many times in your life. When people show you who they are the first time believe them."

2. IIRC, when the FAST Test was developed and the time standards established, RDS were not in play. Langdon's coin (#4) was earned with an iron sighted gun. Indeed, IIRC, the first coin awarded where the shooter used an RDS was # 15-Scott Jedlinski.

3. My best FAST in a class in front of GOD and everybody,in a class -6.21 (Glock 35/180 Speer Lawman, CCC Shaggy AIWB, closed front cover garment, Ameriglo Spartan Operators or their functional equiv.)

4. My best FAST ever 5.24(Glock 34/124 Berry over 4.31 or 4.3 of 231-IIRC, a Keepers Beta AIWB rig/ditto for the rest.

5. You are a better shooter than me.

6. Do it in a class. You have the time, talent and treasure to do do. So do so.

7. If you are going to talk smack about E. Langdon(or anybody else for that matter) , at least have the balls to do it directly as opposed to continually being so oblique in your criticism.

8. God bless TLG and his family.

[MickAK]

1) I can only shoot about 6.0 seconds on the FAST drill. I know I can do better. Unfortunately, I cannot budget more time to take it to a higher level. It is a failing that I accept since I have put more value in other certain things.

I think this is an important consideration, not because of the time constraints (everyone has those to some degree, or if they don't, they will) but because certain training/learning methods are more conducive to being repeatable without high recent time cost in training/practice.

When I found P-F the lightbulb wasn't really in ultimate level of shooting ability but in the ability to repeat it without practicing every day for hours. A lot of speed isn't in being fast as in innate physical ability but in moving fast and efficiently. Goes the same for a lot of the other necessary parts.

[Clusterfrack]

Here are a few thoughts about my personal approach to some of these issues.

I believe that a growth mindset requires finding inspiration in the excellence of others. Continually needing to criticize others' performance to highlight personal success is a sign of a fixed mindset. Obviously we compare people's performance when we compete. I prefer to limit those comparisons strictly to matches, the mat, and other contests where competitors choose to compete with each other. I try to be a gracious loser, and a generous winner. After the competition is over, it's over.

In my own narrow area of science and engineering, I find it frustrating to observe people making a Yuge deal about average work. It threatens the credibility of my field and lowers future standards. I've tried to solve this by calmly pointing people to what I consider state of the art. Sometimes this works, and sometimes people just keep doing the same thing.

When I search for mentors to train with, I look at more than absolute performance at narrow skills. In competitive and defensive shooting, I've trained with (1) national and world champions and tier 1 operators, (2) former top shooters and operators who aged out, or (3) simply highly skilled individuals (e.g. local GM, LEO, and civilian enthusiasts). I have done the same in martial arts/combatives. There is ZERO correlation between the numerical categories I listed and value as an instructor/mentor. ZERO.

I have wasted time and money training with people in categories 1-3 for a variety of reasons, including lack of skill at shooting/fighting, lack of ability to teach, or being such an asshole that no one can learn from them.

I am very reluctant to train with someone who cannot demo what they are teaching. I do not expect the instructor to be able to clean every demonstration, or be able to perform at the highest possible level. When I observe someone laughing when the instructor makes a mistake, I know this poor guy/girl is going to have a tough time with their fixed mindset.

[GJM]

A few thoughts:

1) I think it is cool that Ernest is confident enough in who he is as a person, that he posted a video where he didn’t meet goal.

2) the guy that shot the two clean runs at the end of the video, broke the 180 holstering while taking his victory lap.

3) I like it when people post videos, because “I can do X,” without seeing it, means a wide range of things from I did it once, to I do it on demand, to I want to be able to do this.

4) Running down others is flat out low class. Many things are better thought than said, especially on the internet.

[JCN]

If your intentions are truly to help those who want it, I apologize for calling your contributions as disguised virtual signaling. I'm sorry. However, I think you can make your point without besmirching other trainers' contribution to our shooting knowledge and innovations. His contribution to the shooting community (training, innovations with the B92, etc) is huge. Basically I took your comment about the video as: "That guy can't shoot a 5.0 sec FAST. His value as a teacher/contributor is now downgraded because he cannot shoot better than me on demand. If he cannot perform and demand GM level shooting from his students, he is not to be fully trusted. Because of this he is undermining your growth!" Of course I'm being hyperbolic/sarcastic but I think you can your message out better.

I think that’s fair. I’ll qualify my perspective a little which includes:

Even when I wasn’t a GM, I wouldn’t have wanted to take lessons from someone who wasn’t better than where I wanted to get to.

I am irreverent. Because I don’t care about what someone did or had done. Or how good they were or once were.

That’s just me. I want an instructor in the prime of their abilities so I can see what they’re doing and not just have them talk at me.

So their training pedigree or what they’ve brought historically don’t matter much for what I’m looking for.

I wouldn’t buy an RMR because of how innovative they once were.

What matters to me is now.

Do it in a class

I know we have different opinions on the matter and I respect that and I respect you and your loyalty to those you love.

I would be a terrible student in a Langdon or Gabe White class. I would likely be disruptive and hurt other people’s learning. I wouldn’t be interested in actively hurting others.

Sure, pressure adds a dimension but I’m not concerned about that since a FAST is so far into my wheelhouse.

1.5 second concealed draw to notecard, 0.5 split, 1.5 reload and three follow up shots at 0.25 is not a big ask.

Something like the Tier 1 three sevens is a more stringent drill.

It’s a draw to a 1” target from concealment.

I did that cold at the range.



I personally think most people would be better served hiring a local M/GM for 4 sessions of individual coaching one on one than taking a pistol class with a famous instructor.

I am concerned that instructors may rest on their previous resume and history, which is not what I want in a class.

It’s reminiscent of when PF member took a Ken Hackathorn class and despite his contributions to the craft and his legacy, the course was more a history lesson than a pistol training course.

That’s my bias and my perspective as a self taught shooter.

I would have no problem saying that directly to anyone.

Mr. XYZ, you have an excellent reputation and significant historical contributions to the field. Your instruction and courses are likely good value and time spent for the average shooters looking to become pretty good.

Since shooting improvement takes longitudinal, ongoing work by the student, I prefer one-on-one ongoing coaching from someone who is able to perform at or above the level I can and want to shoot at.

I do not think that the format of group learning is conductive to efficient learning except at the basic to intermediate level and I think modern educational models of facilitated coaching such as Max Michel’s or Stoeger’s PTSG are more effective for the modern student.

[JCN]

4) Running down others is flat out low class. Many things are better thought than said, especially on the internet.

I’m okay with being deemed low class.

At some point when Rob Leatham is so old that he only has B class mechanics, I’ll say that Rob Leatham only has B class mechanics.

That’s not a comment on who he is or his teaching ability or his ability in his prime.

Just that he, at that point in the future, has B class mechanics.

Ernest Langdon currently does not have GM mechanics.

He doesn’t need them to teach the students in his class effectively.

I was embarrassed for him because that draw was awkwardly slow and while his reload was solid, his recoil management was uneven and he rushed a shot trying to make time hence the miss.

It’s clear to me where he fell short mechanically and if I was getting instruction I would want and pay for someone who understood those mechanics intimately.

While it’s possible to understand and not be able to do it, it’s much less likely if they can show you they can do it and explain it.

[vcdgrips]

JCN

I call BS.

JCN says:
"I would be a terrible student in a Langdon or Gabe White class. I would likely be disruptive and hurt other people’s learning. I wouldn’t be interested in actively hurting others.
Sure, pressure adds a dimension but I’m not concerned about that since a FAST is so far into my wheelhouse"

a. you would only be disruptive if you chose to be so
b. if you could not appropriately moderate your behavior in a class, that speaks to you as a person


I find it moderately ironic how when folks who are incessent to show they are the "bestest," always move the goals-posts when called to task. Nobody said a flipping word about any shooting "test" other than the FAST. yet you attach a video that purports be some other test shot cold.


You mention Gabe White and how bad a student you would be in his class...

Go to a class and shoot a sub 4.58 FAST with an iron sighted gun AIWB with a closed front shirt for your concealment, apples to apples.

Go to the Rodgers school and shoot a 125 out of 125, AIWB from concealment with a closed front shirt from concealment in front of your classmates.

...but you won't, guys like you never do.


PS- You are still a better shooter than me.

[JCN]

JCN

I call BS.

JCN says:
"I would be a terrible student in a Langdon or Gabe White class. I would likely be disruptive and hurt other people’s learning. I wouldn’t be interested in actively hurting others.
Sure, pressure adds a dimension but I’m not concerned about that since a FAST is so far into my wheelhouse"

a. you would only be disruptive if you chose to be so
b. if you could not appropriately moderate your behavior in a class, that speaks to you as a person

I’m still saying this with respect towards you and as a clarifying statement.

It’s not meant to be disrespectful to you.

Regarding those points:
Yes agreed.

It would take more effort than I’m willing to put in and voluntarily give to a hobby to sit in a class like that.

I could do it. But it would be distinctly unfun for me.

I can do it. But it’s not worth the aggravation to me to do it voluntarily.

Yes that speaks to how I would choose to spend my time voluntarily.

I know myself and it’s one of my most extreme displeasures mentally to listen to things from an “expert” when they’re in error. Whether they are or aren’t in error, I would be looking to challenge them instead of taking everything as gospel.

Trust but verify if you will.

I find it moderately ironic how when folks who are incessent to show they are the "bestest," always move the goals-posts when called to task. Nobody said a flipping word about any shooting "test" other than the FAST. yet you attach a video that purports be some other test shot cold.

Counselor, it doesn’t have to be that literal!

The three sevens drill I posted is basically a FAST with harder time parameters, add transitions and harder targets.

It’s a concealed draw to a 1” circle transition to a 2” for two shots (both of those are harder than a 3x5 card) slide lock reload and then three shots to a 3” and transition to a 1” in under 7 seconds.

If your standard was kick a field goal at 20 yards and I showed you that I could kick a field goal at 35 yards without a running start, that’s moving the goal posts but in a way that supports you can easily hit anything easier.

So yes. Moving goal posts. But in the opposite direction to show that the original posts aren’t that far.

You mention Gabe White and how bad a student you would be in his class...

Go to a class and shoot a sub 4.58 FAST with an iron sighted gun AIWB with a closed front shirt for your concealment, apples to apples.

Go to the Rodgers school and shoot a 125 out of 125, AIWB from concealment with a closed front shirt from concealment in front of your classmates.

...but you won't, guys like you never do.

PS- You are still a better shooter than me.

Why would I have to chase 2016 Gabe White? Where are the 2022 Gabe White performances? Why would I shoot a gun and system to match something that he may not be able to duplicate if his own training has fallen by the wayside.

I am tempted to take a Gabe White class sometime. If one comes local and I have some time, I probably will.

But even with a gun that I only shot two magazines through, I can do 7/8 turbo runs. I don’t think 4 is going to be an issue even with the pressure of a class. I love pressure. That’s why I compete.

[vcdgrips]

JCN

Yet another example of moving the goal-posts.

The definitiveness with which you speak re shooting challenges you yourself have never partaken of is astounding. i.e the ease with which you could do X by attaching a video of you doing Y and/or referencing others i.e. Ben Stoeger shooting a "FAST" and unnamed folks who shot 125 at Rogers.

I fully admit I have never been to Rogers. However, I do not post up saying the shooting challengers presented are not that hard based on my status as a GM and drills I have extrapolated to show how "bestest" I am.

I know:

1. it is not worth your time

2. you would frustrated

3. you would detract from the experience for other shooter and you are too good a person to ever to that

4. it really is not much of a challenge for you anyway

Or

A. Go shoot a real match against a top 10 nationally ranked GM with video and links to scores

and

B. Go to a school and shoot the FAST or the Rogers Test for your instructor, classmates and all to see


2016 Gabe White is relevant because that was the 1st time somebody did it (125/of 125@ Rogers) with an iron sighted gun, from concealment.

If Drs. you know talked about procedures they have never done,particularly those outside of their speciality and/or board certification, the way you talk about shooting drills/tests you have never done-you would dismiss them out of hand would you not?

PS- You are a better shooter than me.