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Thread: Department Issue/Authorized RDS

  1. #31
    Member SoCalDep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyCNY View Post
    This is a copy of my post from the General Holosun Optics thread -



    I won't get back to the range for a couple more weeks, but I'm hoping using actual Loctite will solve my issues. As @Magsz says the CHPWS plate is aluminum (as far as I can tell) so I'm hesitant to torque too tightly.

    Watching some of the CHPWS install videos, and they recommend 'staking' the mounting screws with an marker; I had never heard of it referred to in this manner (previously only knew about the vampire-type staking, and staking on an AR15-style buffer tube). They also don't seem to have issues with VC3 - maybe I did in fact use too much.
    I’d be hesitant to go nuts on torque, but the RMR, SRO, DeltaPoint Pro, Holosun 407 and 507 line, Sig Romeo 1 Pro, among others are all manufactured of aluminum and get torqued to 15 - 30 in/lbs. I don’t think 13-15 is unreasonable, but I’ll speak more to that in a sec…

    As for the term “staking”, I’m not a fan of using that term. The markings do nothing to hold the screws/plate in place. They are an early-warning system for a loose screw to hopefully catch it before the optic shears or comes loose enough to completely loose zero. They are also fairly pointless on plates that are covered by the optic since you can’t check them. I don’t even apply them (indicator markings) to the plate anymore… just the optic to plate or slide screws.

    As for the C&H 509T plates… I’ve had one on a Glock for probably nearly a year now with no issues and at this point I’ve installed or re-installed around seven or eight of the M&P versions. When I’ve installed them, 10 in/lbs doesn’t do it. The screw head is still proud of the surface of the plate and the optic will not sit flush. I think this may be a big reason for optics coming loose from the plate. Further, going to 13-15 in/lbs (see comment on the bottom) results in the screw turning a fair bit more which leads me to believe it’s just not tight enough at 10 to hold in place. This may be why the plates come loose so quickly when the C&H instructions for their other plates are followed.

    When I installed the first plate I was a bit freaked out because whatever anodizing C&H used began to chip/flake. I pointed this out to the owner of the pistol, who gave me the go-ahead to proceed. This has occurred with every one of the M&P plates I’ve installed, but the screws sit flush, the optic mounts secure at 20 in/lbs, and those used in our red dot (pistol optic) certification class remained secure for 1,000+ rounds.

    Lastly… for the love of all that is good in the world… just stop using VC3. It’s truly ridiculous that people are still trying to justify the use of a sub-standard product by using the excuse that someone “didn’t do it right” when I’ve seen it come loose done right and when there are other products that are simply better. Instead of allowing companies to set customers and users up for failure let’s keep it simple by using what works and yeeting the free crap that comes in the bag.

    *** I’m not at work where I have my worksheet records but after thinking about it I can’t remember if I used 15 in/lbs or 13 in/lbs when I mounted the M&P 509T plates. Proceed at your own risk.

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDep View Post
    I’d be hesitant to go nuts on torque, but the RMR, SRO, DeltaPoint Pro, Holosun 407 and 507 line, Sig Romeo 1 Pro, among others are all manufactured of aluminum and get torqued to 15 - 30 in/lbs. I don’t think 13-15 is unreasonable, but I’ll speak more to that in a sec…

    As for the term “staking”, I’m not a fan of using that term. The markings do nothing to hold the screws/plate in place. They are an early-warning system for a loose screw to hopefully catch it before the optic shears or comes loose enough to completely loose zero. They are also fairly pointless on plates that are covered by the optic since you can’t check them. I don’t even apply them (indicator markings) to the plate anymore… just the optic to plate or slide screws.
    CHPWS uses the term "staking" not as the "witness marks" but to using an oil-based marker to 'paint' around the screw, where some of it seeps down and helps lock it in? Doesn't make sense to me but I'm a novice in this area.. Check this video, at the 3:45 mark -

    https://youtu.be/6SDa6mXW9YM

    I appreciate the info you've provided in this thread!

  3. #33
    Member SoCalDep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyCNY View Post
    CHPWS uses the term "staking" not as the "witness marks" but to using an oil-based marker to 'paint' around the screw, where some of it seeps down and helps lock it in? Doesn't make sense to me but I'm a novice in this area.. Check this video, at the 3:45 mark -

    https://youtu.be/6SDa6mXW9YM

    I appreciate the info you've provided in this thread!
    I couldn’t finish the video. I got to the part you referenced after stopping it several times out of anger but reminding myself I needed to hear it and its context to reply to this post. I stopped it maybe 30 seconds or a minute later.

    I’ll offer my perspective first... I like C&H plates. I have several. I know people who have a very good business relationship with C&H and C&H has done great stuff for the industry and pushing optics on pistols that one maybe wouldn’t expect, much of it without taking credit. That said, I disagree with this video so much that I’m angry typing right now. My wife is mad at me for angry typing at near dinner time. That’s how much I loathe this video.

    Using a paint pen to ensure that a screw stays in place on an optic being slammed back and forth on a reciprocating pistol slide during the cycle of operation is like using a bandaid to ensure the wound packing stays in place for a femoral arterial wound. It’s so dumb that it makes me mad. Let’s use a poor product to hold the screw in place and then we’ll tell people to use a poorer product to maybe help the poor product stay in place. BOOOOOO.

    It’s not staking... It’s hoping.

    BOOOOO.

  4. #34
    Staking is deforming metal to prevent a screw or part from turning, like a AR/M-16 gas key is staked when properly assembled to the bolt carrier. Or how you should stake the castle nut on a buffer tube.

    Painting witness marks on optic/mount screws is useful to (hopefully) detect loosening before anything goes flying. Trying to use paint to hold a screw in place buy encircling the screw head is absurd. Calling it staking is misusing the word. Your anger is justified, SoCal. Words have meanings.

  5. #35
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    Living across the Golden Bridge , and through the Rainbow Tunnel, somewhere north of Fantasyland.
    *Logs into Pistol-Forum
    *Goes to Red Dot Sights sub-forum
    *Sees new post by SoCalDep
    *Yes! Learning begins.....

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDep View Post
    I’d be hesitant to go nuts on torque, but the RMR, SRO, DeltaPoint Pro, Holosun 407 and 507 line, Sig Romeo 1 Pro, among others are all manufactured of aluminum and get torqued to 15 - 30 in/lbs. I don’t think 13-15 is unreasonable, but I’ll speak more to that in a sec…

    As for the term “staking”, I’m not a fan of using that term. The markings do nothing to hold the screws/plate in place. They are an early-warning system for a loose screw to hopefully catch it before the optic shears or comes loose enough to completely loose zero. They are also fairly pointless on plates that are covered by the optic since you can’t check them. I don’t even apply them (indicator markings) to the plate anymore… just the optic to plate or slide screws.

    As for the C&H 509T plates… I’ve had one on a Glock for probably nearly a year now with no issues and at this point I’ve installed or re-installed around seven or eight of the M&P versions. When I’ve installed them, 10 in/lbs doesn’t do it. The screw head is still proud of the surface of the plate and the optic will not sit flush. I think this may be a big reason for optics coming loose from the plate. Further, going to 13-15 in/lbs (see comment on the bottom) results in the screw turning a fair bit more which leads me to believe it’s just not tight enough at 10 to hold in place. This may be why the plates come loose so quickly when the C&H instructions for their other plates are followed.

    When I installed the first plate I was a bit freaked out because whatever anodizing C&H used began to chip/flake. I pointed this out to the owner of the pistol, who gave me the go-ahead to proceed. This has occurred with every one of the M&P plates I’ve installed, but the screws sit flush, the optic mounts secure at 20 in/lbs, and those used in our red dot (pistol optic) certification class remained secure for 1,000+ rounds.

    Lastly… for the love of all that is good in the world… just stop using VC3. It’s truly ridiculous that people are still trying to justify the use of a sub-standard product by using the excuse that someone “didn’t do it right” when I’ve seen it come loose done right and when there are other products that are simply better. Instead of allowing companies to set customers and users up for failure let’s keep it simple by using what works and yeeting the free crap that comes in the bag.

    *** I’m not at work where I have my worksheet records but after thinking about it I can’t remember if I used 15 in/lbs or 13 in/lbs when I mounted the M&P 509T plates. Proceed at your own risk.
    I must be very lucky because I've got 5 red dots mounted with VC3 and haven't had any issues all are torqued to 10 inch lbs but all are direct milled so not sure if that makes a difference or not with my luck

  7. #37
    Member SoCalDep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utm View Post
    I must be very lucky because I've got 5 red dots mounted with VC3 and haven't had any issues all are torqued to 10 inch lbs but all are direct milled so not sure if that makes a difference or not with my luck
    I do think that the direct milling contributes to your success. That said, my first optic was mounted with no thread-locker and an Allen wrench and never came loose. I’ve got a lot more experience now and I’ve lost count of the number of optics I’ve mounted but it’s probably in the high double digits or hundreds.

    I’ve mounted optics with VC3 that have worked and stayed tight. I’ve seen more failures than successes. I think it’s a poor product for use with pistol optics. If it worked then I do think you are lucky.

    I’m cool with being lucky, but I don’t want to depend on it.

  8. #38
    Update to my previous loose 509t plate issue - I stripped the VC3 off the screws and used the Loctite "glue stick" (blue 248). After 180 rounds today and racking the slide with the optic several dozen times it is not loose at all. (neither the optic NOR the plate) So yay!

    On a related note, I was shooting back and forth between my M&P 2.0 Compact w/ 509t and my usual carry gun, a SIG P365XL w/ 507k, when I noticed the screw for the battery tray on my 507k was missing. Since I was shooting in grass there was no way I was going to find that little screw, and I didn't find extras in the Holosun packaging. (the gasket around the tray prevented it from falling out) Since the 365 is my carry pistol I used the screw from the 509t and contacted Holosun; they've already asked for my shipping address. I tried finding the screw online first.. might be in one of the Holosun optic threads. Might be a good idea to stock up on a few.



    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyCNY View Post
    This is a copy of my post from the General Holosun Optics thread -



    I won't get back to the range for a couple more weeks, but I'm hoping using actual Loctite will solve my issues. As @Magsz says the CHPWS plate is aluminum (as far as I can tell) so I'm hesitant to torque too tightly.

    Watching some of the CHPWS install videos, and they recommend 'staking' the mounting screws with an marker; I had never heard of it referred to in this manner (previously only knew about the vampire-type staking, and staking on an AR15-style buffer tube). They also don't seem to have issues with VC3 - maybe I did in fact use too much.

  9. #39
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Northern VA
    I have now had VC3 come loose 3 different times now, and I was religious about following directions in terms of acetone, curing the product, correct torque spec, etc. No more VC3 for me. I just got some Loctite 248, but before that I had resorted to Loctite red. (I just use a soldering iron on the screw head for a few seconds before loosening if I want to take it off, but after switching to external battery optics, I'm not as worried about dismount/remount.)

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by SMJayman View Post
    I have now had VC3 come loose 3 different times now, and I was religious about following directions in terms of acetone, curing the product, correct torque spec, etc. No more VC3 for me. I just got some Loctite 248, but before that I had resorted to Loctite red. (I just use a soldering iron on the screw head for a few seconds before loosening if I want to take it off, but after switching to external battery optics, I'm not as worried about dismount/remount.)
    See my post above - but after removing the VC3 from my 509t plate and re-applying with Loctite 248 I put 200 rounds through and the plate is not loose at all. I also upped the torque slightly - install guide said 10 inch-lbs but I did ~13.

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