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Thread: Smith & Wesson (re)enters the pump gun market

  1. #81
    I don't know enough about shotguns to comment on the LOP issue.

    But for bullpup rifles, I've noticed LOP is not much of a factor, simply because the traditional factors involved in LOP have little to do with the reality of a bullpup design.

    With a conventionally stocked rifle or shotgun, LOP is of tremendous concern because it influences multiple factors of the shooters relationship to the weapon.
    -Weapon overall length
    -Distance support hand must extend to grip the forearm/ handguard
    -Distance support hand must travel to insert magazines / shells / operate WML's
    -Elevation of the shooters face and eye on the stocks comb in relationship to the sights / bead
    -Distance the shooters eye is from the sights (for rifles.)



    With a modern combat arm that uses a In-Line Stock, LOP is still a factor, although for fewer reasons, as the effect of LOP on the shooters head elevation is gone:
    -Weapon overall length
    -Distance support hand must extend to grip the forearm/ handguard
    -Distance support hand must travel to insert magazines / shells / operate WML's
    -Distance the shooters eye is from the sights (for rifles.)



    But with the Bullpup (at least bullpup rifle) none of those LOP effects appear to apply, as the trigger location of the weapon has no real relationship with any other aspect of the weapon. Whereas with a conventional rifle, the trigger is inexorably linked to the end of the receiver, the bullpup designer can stick the trigger pretty much anywhere forward of the magazine.

    Tavor regular length of pull:


    Tavor shitty sketch showing reduced LOP by moving trigger back ~2":


    Changing the LOP here has no effect on the rest of the rifle the way it would with a conventional rifle:
    -Overall weapons length is the same
    -Hanguard distance for support hand is the same
    -Distance support hand must reach to access magazines/shells and operate WML's is the same
    -Shooters eye distance to the rifles sights remains the same

    Basically the only thing thats changed is the shooters firing hand distance, and the overall balance point of the weapon. Neither of which in the case of the bullpup rifle improve by shortening the LOP.

    In my limited experience of having female friends use my various bullpup rifles, length of pull was not a factor. All that mattered was the location of the rifles optic relative to their eye. The AUG's factory fixed optic is located in the position for a adult man not a 5' woman, so it was too far away. But another AUG using a rail that extended to the ejection port, with an optic moved back to fit the proper eye relief for a 5' woman, and it was no issue.
    Last edited by spyderco monkey; 08-22-2021 at 05:46 PM.

  2. #82
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    The distance between where the gun makes contact with the upper body and where the firing hand contacts the weapon is absolutely critical if someone is to have optimal control of the gun.

    If your experience with bullpups is 5.56 rifles, a bad fit means that the gun moves the person around more than is optimal for rapid, accurate shooting.

    When we use that layout on a 12 gauge it completely fouls the body mechanics necessary to run the shotgun in a way that results in people getting their ass kicked by the weapon. Again, look at the people shooting in the TFTB video. They are getting their shit rocked every time they press the trigger, and little wonder because the length of pull forces them to have a much more bladed stance. It also forces the gun to sit right on joints, meaning if you aren't using effective recoil mitigation every shot loads directly into bits of anatomy that take enough of a beating on their own without adding to it with stupid designs.

    This individual is at least 6 feet tall and look at where the gun sits on him:

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    It's sufficiently long that it is forcing the gun out into his shoulder joint. And that's a taller than average male. When we put the gun in the hands of a taller than average female:

    Name:  badidea2.jpg
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    It forces her into a more upright stance, puts the butt of the gun on a major joint, and the resulting ass-kicking-in-progress knocks her back to the point that she's half out of frame having started out framed up in the center. Look at how the layout of that gun forces her body around it. That shit is up on her collar bone and at the shoulder joint.

    This gets old really quick.

    I've seen this over and over again in class. When a gun stretches people out like that it has the same effect as stretching somebody out when you are grappling. It minimizes their ability to exert force or control. And with shotguns, if you aren't pushing the gun around it's going to push you around.
    Last edited by TCinVA; 08-23-2021 at 12:39 PM.
    3/15/2016

  3. #83
    I know I'm echoing @TCinVA, but shotgun fit is of utmost importance for proper recoil management, along with the ability to operate it effectively. Running a shotgun that does not fit is counterintuitive to a weapon that is generally used for point shooting. When using 1600FPS slugs, it prevents a proper cheekweld with excessive felt recoil. Mossberg is about the only manufacturer who realized that deer/turkey shotguns may benefit from an adjustable LOP since 14" is way too long if you aren't wingshooting.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    The distance between where the gun makes contact with the upper body and where the firing hand contacts the weapon is absolutely critical if someone is to have optimal control of the gun.

    If your experience with bullpups is 5.56 rifles, a bad fit means that the gun moves the person around more than is optimal for rapid, accurate shooting.

    When we use that layout on a 12 gauge it completely fouls the body mechanics necessary to run the shotgun in a way that results in people getting their ass kicked by the weapon. Again, look at the people shooting in the TFTB video. They are getting their shit rocked every time they press the trigger, and little wonder because the length of pull forces them to have a much more bladed stance. It also forces the gun to sit right on joints, meaning if you aren't using effective recoil mitigation every shot loads directly into bits of anatomy that take enough of a beating on their own without adding to it with stupid designs.

    This individual is at least 6 feet tall and look at where the gun sits on him:

    Name:  badidea1.jpg
Views: 335
Size:  23.5 KB

    It's sufficiently long that it is forcing the gun out into his shoulder joint. And that's a taller than average male. When we put the gun in the hands of a taller than average female:

    Name:  badidea2.jpg
Views: 333
Size:  26.4 KB

    It forces her into a more upright stance, puts the butt of the gun on a major joint, and the resulting ass-kicking-in-progress knocks her back to the point that she's half out of frame having started out framed up in the center. Look at how the layout of that gun forces her body around it. That shit is up on her collar bone and at the shoulder joint.

    This gets old really quick.

    I've seen this over and over again in class. When a gun stretches people out like that it has the same effect as stretching somebody out when you are grappling. It minimizes their ability to exert force or control. And with shotguns, if you aren't pushing the gun around it's going to push you around.
    You saved me a lot of typing.
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  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by JWintergreen View Post
    Ugh...

    It sure would be nice to see a company offer a quality conventional pump shotgun with a 18-20" barrel, and a full length mag tube, to compete with the Mossberg 590/590a1 series. Thanks to import restrictions, and Remington's woes, Mossberg has a monopoly in this area right now. The market is wide open. Hopefully, Roundhill will be smart enough to market the 870 Police Magnum to the civilian market, and increase QC on the Express lineup.
    Which S&W used to import the excellent 3000 model shotgun (made by Howa). I wish those were coning back. I stupidly traded mine 10 years ago

  6. #86
    Accused M&P Cultist Joe in PNG's Avatar
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    What they should do is work on getting a good, reliable, and affordable conventional semi-auto that can compete with the Beretta 1301 or Benelli M-4.
    But they won't.
    "You win 100% of the fights you avoid. If you're not there when it happens, you don't lose." - William Aprill
    "I've owned a guitar for 31 years and that sure hasn't made me a musician, let alone an expert. It's made me a guy who owns a guitar."- BBI

  7. #87
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe in PNG View Post
    What they should do is work on getting a good, reliable, and affordable conventional semi-auto that can compete with the Beretta 1301 or Benelli M-4.
    But they won't.
    I think they're going to sell a bunch of these. And, after all, their objective is to sell guns. Stupid sells better much of the time...although I wonder about the ratio of Governors sold to Judges, because I have this nagging suspicion that people interested in buying stupid also like to buy cheap.

    Getting a semi-auto shotgun right seems to be difficult given how few there are on the market that work well. I can't blame them for going pump action meme gun because they'll probably work and they'll probably sell.
    3/15/2016

  8. #88
    Accused M&P Cultist Joe in PNG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    I think they're going to sell a bunch of these. And, after all, their objective is to sell guns. Stupid sells better much of the time...although I wonder about the ratio of Governors sold to Judges, because I have this nagging suspicion that people interested in buying stupid also like to buy cheap.

    Getting a semi-auto shotgun right seems to be difficult given how few there are on the market that work well. I can't blame them for going pump action meme gun because they'll probably work and they'll probably sell.
    And if they did, they'd probably make another mag fed AR style thing.
    "You win 100% of the fights you avoid. If you're not there when it happens, you don't lose." - William Aprill
    "I've owned a guitar for 31 years and that sure hasn't made me a musician, let alone an expert. It's made me a guy who owns a guitar."- BBI

  9. #89
    The ideal pump in 2021 would be a quasi 870 with a built-in 1913 rail, Mossberg-like ejector, skeletonized loading gate, and 870MCS-like modularity. Completely nitrided receivers, 14"-22" nitrided barrels, coated internals. Iron sight options would be express rifle, or large bead on pedestal. Only Magpul SGA furniture sets and good QC. Keeping it under $800 street price would be ideal.

    OTOH, $600 AR15s go brrrrrt and 60 freedoms will fit in your back pockets.

  10. #90
    Member gato naranja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonder9 View Post
    The ideal pump in 2021 would be a quasi 870 with a built-in 1913 rail, Mossberg-like ejector, skeletonized loading gate, and 870MCS-like modularity. Completely nitrided receivers, 14"-22" nitrided barrels, coated internals. Iron sight options would be express rifle, or large bead on pedestal. Only Magpul SGA furniture sets and good QC. Keeping it under $800 street price would be ideal.
    Amen! Every point rings true. An outfit that can do this while maintaining interchangeability of existing 870 barrels, accessories and a plurality of parts would be deserving of gratitude and profits.

    Unfortunately, this is equally true...

    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    Stupid sells better much of the time...
    If S&W had offered this bullpup in 10 gauge, there is a certain market segment that would just HAVE to own one.
    gn

    (un VIEJO gato naranja... and still skeptical about humans)

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