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Thread: Cartridges You'd Like to See Invented or Developed

  1. #1
    Four String Fumbler Joe in PNG's Avatar
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    Cartridges You'd Like to See Invented or Developed

    We've talked about dead cartridges we'd like to see revived.
    But what are some you'd like to see invented or developed?

    I'd like to see something in a .32 rimless, that pushes a 110/115 grn bullet to a usable velocity- kind of a modernized .30 Pederson/ 7.62 French Long.
    "You win 100% of the fights you avoid. If you're not there when it happens, you don't lose." - William Aprill
    "I've owned a guitar for 31 years and that sure hasn't made me a musician, let alone an expert. It's made me a guy who owns a guitar."- BBI

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe in PNG View Post
    We've talked about dead cartridges we'd like to see revived.
    But what are some you'd like to see invented or developed?

    I'd like to see something in a .32 rimless, that pushes a 110/115 grn bullet to a usable velocity- kind of a modernized .30 Pederson/ 7.62 French Long.
    I second this notion. Don't know how feasible it is, but manage to stuff 20 rounds of something like that in a G19 size package, or 12 to 15 in a P365 size gun, with a round that recoils less than 9mm, but performs better than .380 seems like it could be a winner.

    If you can get over the hump of selling a nonstandard caliber, and can keep the number chasers from cranking the 'performance' out of the realm of the practical. Like the .327s impressive capability coming at the cost of insane muzzle blast.

  3. #3
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    I'd like to see a .243 - .257 intermediate rifle round on the hotter side of life- something perhaps optimized for an AR-12.5, with higher chamber pressures than the Grendel or x39 Improved rounds. A round designed with high-BC bullets already in mind, with optimized neck length/tension, extractor rim, and body taper, working at 65-80kpsi range (and hotter is better!).

    Of course, I'd like to see the magazines, rifles, bullets, etc. all show up at the same time- but this why it's an exercise in what "I'd like to see", rather than "what is can and can be".
    Per the PF Code of Conduct, I have a commercial interest in the StreakTM product as sold by Ammo, Inc.

  4. #4
    Four String Fumbler Joe in PNG's Avatar
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    In sticking to my odd desire to see a modern version of the old Velo Dog revolver- a small, hammerless DAO revolver with a folding trigger, it would be interesting to see an improved cartridge to be chambered in it.

    Conceptually, it would be a rimmed .25acp centerfire, stretched to 22 mag length, using a lead wadcutter, with a heavier bullet and powder charge.
    "You win 100% of the fights you avoid. If you're not there when it happens, you don't lose." - William Aprill
    "I've owned a guitar for 31 years and that sure hasn't made me a musician, let alone an expert. It's made me a guy who owns a guitar."- BBI

  5. #5
    Site Supporter OlongJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe in PNG View Post
    We've talked about dead cartridges we'd like to see revived.
    But what are some you'd like to see invented or developed?

    I'd like to see something in a .32 rimless, that pushes a 110/115 grn bullet to a usable velocity- kind of a modernized .30 Pederson/ 7.62 French Long.
    7.92x24 was basically that.

    Quote Originally Posted by OlongJohnson View Post
    Several years ago, I thought this up all on my own and then went Googling and found I wasn't first.

    https://military.wikia.org/wiki/7.92%C3%9724mm

    I think the guy's big problem was that, like many others, he wanted to be the smartest firearms engineer in the world and reinvent bullets, rather than just settling for building momentum for a really great wildcat idea.

    That cartridge loaded with 115gr Gold Dots would be excellent.

    It's frustrating even without the Belgian project taking off that the .312 115gr GD is now out of production, because it would be superb in .327 Federal. Seems like, at least before the last year and a half, it should have been a no-brainer for Vista to set up the presses and do a run for components as well as offer it as factory ammo every couple years. Maybe .327 Fed guys were just dumb in the past and wanted all the FPS, rather than a little more sectional density.
    Similar disaster on another cartridge I also thought up and found was already out there: .375 Reaper. Basically, .300 BLK concept on a .308 case with a .375 bullet. The guy who tried to commercialize it dropped so many turds in so many punch bowls that he killed a potentially good idea, and now owns all of nothing a lot of debt and enemies, apparently. If you want a ballistic equivalent, .375 SOCOM looks like the alternative that will actually work.

    https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...ry-375-reaper/

    One thing I would like to see is the .17 WSM as a .20 cal. It would be a lot more interesting to me with that little bit more thump. I'd be fine if it didn't get all the way to 3000 fps.

    I mentioned in the other thread that a 7mm-.204 would be cool, but I think something smaller like 6.5 or .25 would probably actually be a little better balanced with that case capacity.

    I think the 6.8 USA (if I'm remembering the designation correctly) would be cool to see in the wild. Commie casehead diameter, a little longer and less taper, but enough case taper and shoulder angle for FA feeding. Something like 40 grains of powder - more than Commie and .30-30, but less than .308. Standard case technologies and standard pressures - no magic beans, just a good, intermediate cartridge where there's a little bit of a gap in the picket fence of cartridges that exist currently.
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  6. #6
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    The 10x25R, aka .40/.44 Russian

    The 10x25mm, a rimmed revolver wildcat, aka .40/.44 Russian

    "Shortened .38-40" is versatile as BP cowboy plinker, powerful smokeless packing pistol or hard-hitting, subsonic, blooper rifle.


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    Our 10x25mm Revolver Project was spawned during a chat over adult beverages between myself, Mike Hastings, and Sam Hotton. The concept was for a handy "packing pistol" of caliber, “starting with a 4,” throwing “a half-ounce chunk of lead about 1000 fps,” which could be loaded down for small game using either light smokeless loads or black powder to approximate .41 Long Colt ballistics. It should also make a dandy subsonic blooper rifle for dispatching garden varmints without disturbing the neighbors or "scaring the natives."

    The design objective we came up with was for a strong, modern, RIMMED .40 cal. cartridge, which could exploit .40 S&W or 10mm jacketed or .38-40 cast bullets. In the medium game “packing pistol” role, it should approximate .38-40 black powder rifle ballistics using smokeless, firing from a sturdy Ruger revolver, doing so with a compact, sturdy case, formed from common brass, thus avoiding the excess free airspace, and fragile nature of .38-40 brass.

    Powder capacity should approximate the 10mm Auto (actually it's about 8% greater). Five grains of Bullseye with a 180-220 grain cast bullet approximates .40 S&W or .45 ACP energy. A case full (21 grs. poured, or 24 grains using a compression die) of 3Fg Goex black powder, (4.5 grains) of Trail Boss or a "starting" load (3.5 grains) of Bullseye gives about 700-750 fps for Cowboy Action, plinking, or small game. The .44 Russian case has exactly the right case capacity, when necked down to .40 having a poured capacity of 21 grains of 3Fg, or 4.5 grains of Trail Boss.

    Mike and I were the initial guinea pigs, both having .357/9mm Ruger convertible Blackhawks that weren’t being used much. Dave Manson made the reamer. Our gunsmith, John Taylor, preferred a simple metric designator, so “among us kids” we began to refer to it as “the 10x25mm Revolver Project.” John rebarrelled our Rugers using a Green Mountain “gunsmith special” 10mm barrel with 16” twist, rechambering one cylinder for each gun to .40 S&W, and the other to 10x25mm. Later he did a .357 Ruger Vaquero for Sam Hotton and made a 22" rifle barrel for a pre-WW2 small frame H&R .44 Garden Gun.

    Source brass to make the 10x25mm is Starline .44 Russian, which simply neck it down and use as-is, resulting in a 0.970-0.975” case. The shoulder angle is 6 degrees, 48 minutes Basic, the same as the .38-40 Winchester. Case body diameter is .454" at the shoulder, the same as the .38-40 and .457" at the base, and the same as the .44 Special.

    “DougGuy” made our first set of loading dies by cutting down and honing out .38-40 Lee dies on his Sunnen hone. The die alteration process is as follows:

    1) FL sizer and seater are both cut off by 0.4" and a new thread relief is turned.

    2) Neck portion of the sizer die is honed inside up to .420" diameter to produce a correct fit for loading .400” jacketed bullets, without expanding, but flaring only.

    3) Neck portion of the seater die is honed inside to .429" diameter and the ball seat of the seater die is honed up to .402."

    4) IF you want to cut down .44 Special cases, Doug can shorten a Lee .44 Special case holder for the Quik-Trim, by cutting 0.16" off the top. Then you adjust the Quik-Trim to cut the necked down .44 Special cases to 1.000+0.000/-0.005"

    5) Once you have fire-formed brass, it is possible to neck-size only by using a 0.525” spacer ring with your .40 S&W Auto dies.

    THE SIMPLE WAY TO MAKE CASES is to use Starline .44 Russian cases, neck them down and use them that way! Starline .44 Russian brass comes 0.0960-0.965" long. After necking down to .40 cal. they will be 0.970-0.975". While a wee bit short, it causes no problem. The modified .38-40 dies from are purposefully a wee bit short so that you have “wiggle room” to adjust sizing to get an exact fit to your revolver chamber and to produce a correct, heavy roll crimp with either the necked down Russian 0.97” case or the shortened .44 Special 1-inch case.

    We elected NOT to get an inside neck reaming die made to thin our case necks. This saved a pile of money in die costs and case making effort. It also results in a more sturdy case which can withstand rough handling, unlike paper-thin .38-40s!. We use necked down Starline brass as-is. Our first Manson reamer was ground with a .424" diameter chamber neck, the same as the .40 S&W. This proved OK only if using .400” jacketed bullets in necked down Starline .44 Russian brass, which is about 0.001" thinner than cut-down .44 Special. It did not provide adequate release clearance using cut-down .44 Specials with cast bullets of .401" diameter or larger. Cylinder throats on our revolvers are cut to .4015.”

    After John Taylor notified us of the tight-neck condition, we ordered from Dave Manson a separate .429" neck reamer, which he sent to John to enlarge the chamber necks in our revolver cylinders providing the needed 0.005" additional neck release clearance. Based on our feedback Dave Manson revised the chamber neck diameter on the print. Anyone ordering this reamer should specify .40/.44 Special Short Harris Rev1-6/18.


    Sam and I contemplated having the first cylinder reamer reground to make a rifle reamer, because Sam wanted to build a rook rifle. We bounced these ideas off John Taylor and he suggested:

    “My thoughts would be to take the revolver chamber reamer you have now and have it re-ground for a sizer die and make a new chamber reamer for the rifle. A chucking reamer for bullet diameter can be used first on a revolver cylinder and then using the rifle reamer with the proper size pilot the chamber in a revolver can be cut. The short throat of a rifle reamer should not make any difference on the revolver. McMaster Carr has a .401 or .4015 chucking reamer at $28.52. With a sizing die reamer new dies could be machined from 12L14 and case hardened. Also, it might be possible to anneal a 38-40 die that will be shortened and cut the die with the new reamer and then have it re-hardened.”

    So, Sam and I bought the Rev1-6-18 reamer with .429” neck diameter, having a .402” cylindrical ball seat 0.10” long with 6 degrees, Basic forcing cone. This permits using the Accurate 40-220H or 40-252H bullets as-cast and unsized in the rifle chamber. The reamer John now has is TiCN coated so that it will stay sharp and hold size cutting lots of rifle and revolver chambers! We then had our original reamer reground to a sizing die reamer, so that John can make loading dies for his customers also wanting to do this!

    Initial range trials were conducted firing my converted Blackhawk with its 9mm cylinder rechambered to .40 S&W. Winchester 180-grain FMJFN "White Box" shot to the sights at 25 yards with its rear sight bottomed out. Next I fired .40 S&W hand loads with Accurate 40-182H bullet and 5 grains of Bullseye. Winchester factory 180 FMJs clocked 1043 fps and the Accurate 40-182H with 5 grains of Bullseye 1079 fps from the 5-inch barrel. Hand held off sandbags, running over the chronograph, hand-held six-shot 25-yard groups were 2”.

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    Velocity firing 10x25R in 5” Ruger Blackhawk vs. H&R “Bunny Gun” with 22-inch barrel:
    Reformed Starline .44 Russian cases, .970-.975”, Remington 2-1/2 primers.

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    Accurate 40-182H____Ruger 5”___________H&R 22”
    LD#9 5.0 Bullseye____1009 fps, 10Sd______1144 fps, 17 Sd
    LD#10 4.9 452AA_____not fired_____ _____1082 fps, 17 Sd
    LD#10 7.4 AutoComp_1138 fps, 10 Sd______1285 fps, 9 Sd

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    Accurate 40-220H____Ruger 5”___________H&R 22”
    LD#5 3.5 Bullseye____760 fps 7 Sd _________832 fps, 18 Sd
    LD#9 5.0 Bullseye____949 fps, 10 Sd________1059 fps, 10 Sd
    LD#11 7.4 AutoComp_1083 fps, 10 Sd_______1217 fps, 7 Sd

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    Accurate 40-224H____Ruger 5”___________H&R 22”
    LD#5 3.5 Bullseye____748 fps, 7 Sd__________819 fps, 10 Sd
    LD#7 3.7 452AA_____next range trip _________820 fps, 13 Sd
    LD#8 4.1 452AA_____next range trip _________903 fps, 8 Sd
    LD#10 4.9 452AA____next range trip ________1002, fps 13 Sd
    LD#11 5.5 452AA____963 fps, 5 Sd__________1062 fps, 16 Sd
    LD#20 16 IMR4227___1091 fps, 18 Sd________1376 fps, 26 Sd

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    Accurate 40-252H___Ruger 5”_____________H&R 22”
    LD#5 3.5 Bullseye____711 fps, 12 Sd_________783 fps, 27 Sd
    LD#7 3.7 452AA______740 fps, 10 Sd________814 fps, 11 Sd
    LD#8 4.2 452AA______830 fps, 18 Sd________903 fps, 14 Sd
    LD#10 4.9 452AA_____881 fps, 29 Sd________970 fps, 34 Sd
    LD#20 16 IMR4227___1084 fps, 12 Sd_______1340 fps, 21 Sd
    Last edited by Outpost75; 08-19-2021 at 11:36 AM.

  7. #7
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    If I can't have the .25-20 back, I want a lightly recoiling .257 rifle round. Something like 60 grains at 2000 fps. A quiet critter getter, not really deer capable in the accepted sense of the phrase. A powder miser and large enough diameter to cast easily but small enough to also go easy on the lead supply.

  8. #8

    Conceptual Design: .375 United States Police (9.5x20mm)

    OK, I'll play.

    This is my conceptual design of the 0.375 USP (United States Police) cartridge. (the drawing is my own)

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    From a 4'' pistol barrel, it fires a 155-grain JHP (or FMJ) @ 1,215 fps or a 175-grain JHP (or FMJ) @ 1,075 fps.

    Expansion of JHPs from the .375 USP is expected to be ≈1.5x caliber.

    Predictive modeling with both the Q-model and the mTHOR model follows:

    .375 USP 155-grain JHP
    DEXP = 0.565''
    M = 155 grains
    V = 1,215 fps

    Q-model— Penetration Depth: 17.17 inches ; Wound Mass: 60.10 grams
    mTHOR— Penetration Depth: 16.93 inches ; Wound Mass: 59.25 grams


    .375 USP 175-grain JHP
    DEXP = 0.565''
    M = 175 grains
    V = 1,075 fps

    Q-model— Penetration Depth: 17.98 inches ; Wound Mass: 62.93 grams
    mTHOR— Penetration Depth: 17.46 inches ; Wound Mass: 61.11 grams
    ''Politics is for the present, but an equation is for eternity.'' ―Albert Einstein

    Full disclosure per the Pistol-Forum CoC: I am the author of Quantitative Ammunition Selection.

  9. #9
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    How about a new shotgun round? Maybe something rimless, so it can more easily feed from detachable box magazines. Maybe there is also some way to optimize the diameter and length of the shell to get the same terminal effect as 12 GA buck, but in a smaller package.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe in PNG View Post
    We've talked about dead cartridges we'd like to see revived.
    But what are some you'd like to see invented or developed?

    I'd like to see something in a .32 rimless, that pushes a 110/115 grn bullet to a usable velocity- kind of a modernized .30 Pederson/ 7.62 French Long.
    https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/r...itical-defense

    30 M1 Carbine could be used as-is (and has been) in a handgun. Or shorten the case some and use it with something like a 90gr XTP. Basically a .32 ACP Magnum.

    Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

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