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Thread: G22 Malfunction

  1. #21
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    I just thought about something else, not directly related to the OP. But tangentially related. Those of you who have brass throwing Glocks and also non-brass throwing guns. Have you ever tried slipping a fired case between the breech face and the extractor claw to see how loose it is?

    I wonder if having a claw that isn't pulling the case tight against the face could make the ejection inconsistent?

    Just something that came to me as I was walking the 1/4" mile to the bathroom.

    I'm going to check mine sometime this afternoon. Of course, it is my wife's birthday so maybe tomorrow.

  2. #22
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    Crow Hunter,

    Interesting that the Sig 226 you tested failed that test, because the two 226s and one 228 I've run it on all passed. My two M&P9FS and one M&P45FS pistols also perform well in that testing, which is admittedly, a tough standard.

    You are clearly touching on some of the critical issues of proper and robust extractor function: hook engagement area, tension, hook geometry and physical positioning of the extractor in relation to the slide and breechface from a design and manufacturing viewpoint. I think that there is likely more guesswork and TLAR standards ("that looks about right") than we would like or the manufacturers would admit on some of these guns. It's also a well known fact that a manufacturer will institute a change of a component without adequate testing or consultation of end users. If we are somebody who will shoot the gun 200 rounds during our lifetime, that's no big deal. If we are using the weapon to defend ourselves and/or are shooting the gun that much in a week, then problems mount rapidly.

    The bottom line is that the extractor should NOT lose control of a fired case during the extraction cycle and should present that case to the ejector face in a consistent fashion every time, given appropriate ammuntion choices. If it is losing control of the fired case, there is no way to assure that the ejector will get to do its job and that reliable function will occur. To make things even tougher, in the majority of popular service pistol designs, the extractor ALSO controls feeding from the magazine into the chamber. This is called a "controlled feed design" and Glocks, Sigs, S&W, Beretta and others operate on that principle. If the extractor is failing during the extraction cycle from some deficiency, just how well do you think it's handling that critical feeding task? Just because we are seeing guns "getting away" with marginal function (as indicated by simple testing methods) doesn't mean we should accept it at ANY level for a duty/service weapon, but many clearly are.

    I realize that focusing on one test can skew things to some degree, but sometimes one test gives you a very efficient way of gauging how well a design has been thought out and implemented. This single test quickly indicates how robust (IOW, how consistent over a range of conditions) the extractor function is on a particular pistol. And, when we can see the light at the end of the tunnel with a particular platform and caliber that does pass the test, it makes it even less justifiable to continue to accept marginal, or even clearly unacceptable performance.
    Regional Government Sales Manager for Aimpoint, Inc. USA
    Co-owner Hardwired Tactical Shooting (HiTS)

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Dobbs View Post
    Crow Hunter,

    Interesting that the Sig 226 you tested failed that test, because the two 226s and one 228 I've run it on all passed. My two M&P9FS and one M&P45FS pistols also perform well in that testing, which is admittedly, a tough standard.

    You are clearly touching on some of the critical issues of proper and robust extractor function: hook engagement area, tension, hook geometry and physical positioning of the extractor in relation to the slide and breechface from a design and manufacturing viewpoint. I think that there is likely more guesswork and TLAR standards ("that looks about right") than we would like or the manufacturers would admit on some of these guns. It's also a well known fact that a manufacturer will institute a change of a component without adequate testing or consultation of end users. If we are somebody who will shoot the gun 200 rounds during our lifetime, that's no big deal. If we are using the weapon to defend ourselves and/or are shooting the gun that much in a week, then problems mount rapidly.

    The bottom line is that the extractor should NOT lose control of a fired case during the extraction cycle and should present that case to the ejector face in a consistent fashion every time, given appropriate ammuntion choices. If it is losing control of the fired case, there is no way to assure that the ejector will get to do its job and that reliable function will occur. To make things even tougher, in the majority of popular service pistol designs, the extractor ALSO controls feeding from the magazine into the chamber. This is called a "controlled feed design" and Glocks, Sigs, S&W, Beretta and others operate on that principle. If the extractor is failing during the extraction cycle from some deficiency, just how well do you think it's handling that critical feeding task? Just because we are seeing guns "getting away" with marginal function (as indicated by simple testing methods) doesn't mean we should accept it at ANY level for a duty/service weapon, but many clearly are.

    I realize that focusing on one test can skew things to some degree, but sometimes one test gives you a very efficient way of gauging how well a design has been thought out and implemented. This single test quickly indicates how robust (IOW, how consistent over a range of conditions) the extractor function is on a particular pistol. And, when we can see the light at the end of the tunnel with a particular platform and caliber that does pass the test, it makes it even less justifiable to continue to accept marginal, or even clearly unacceptable performance.
    The 226 in question is a Blackwater edition and belongs to my brother. I only did 2 or 3 or so rounds, maybe a larger sample size would be different? I was also using WWB which I have noticed have thinner rims than UMC or Speer. He actually just showed up while I was testing my 4 Glocks and asked what I was doing. So I tried his too. I assumed it was normal although I though it was odd that the newer Glocks I have will eject while the older ones won't.

    Will those guns you mentioned hold a fired case onto the breech face with just the extractor tension?

    I am going to try it on my Glocks when I get home tonight just for giggles, even if it is my wife's birthday.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crow Hunter View Post

    Will those guns you mentioned hold a fired case onto the breech face with just the extractor tension?
    Yes, they do and will in fact hold a loaded round in that manner. That is another quick test of extractor function/fitting, but I've run across some guns that will pass it that don't necessarily run well. This test does not check for consistent tension while the gun is actually functioning, only a static test of how much tension exists as the part is fitted to the pistol in question.
    Last edited by Wayne Dobbs; 08-02-2012 at 05:01 PM.
    Regional Government Sales Manager for Aimpoint, Inc. USA
    Co-owner Hardwired Tactical Shooting (HiTS)

  5. #25
    "So what to do about this? Randy Lee at Apex Tactical has a prototype extractor and extractor spring that some of us have been beta testing in 9mm Glocks that shows lots of promise. It is a tool steel, EDM machined part and it's tough as woodpecker lips and performs at a level that is where service pistol extractor function should be. Mine is at 2525 rounds without failure and passes the no magazine ejection (out the ejection port) test without problem. It's holding the fired case consistently so that ejection patterns are very consistent and to the location they should be."

    Wayne has been doing a great job of taking this testing on with unbelievable dedication. He is also working with my "Spawn of Satan" FDE Gen 3 G-19 that has about the worse case I have ever seen of extraction issues, and it looks like it may have been cured of its possession by the devil at this point. Now that I have returned to Texas and continued with our weekly training regimen, testing various guns extraction has become sort of a regular thing. I am spending a good amount of time standing next to DetWD watching extraction patterns.

    As an interesting note, I returned from living in Arizona the last couple of months with a P30L with a TLG LEM. The gun is filthy and unlubricated (which drives DetWD nuts, but is how I like to do initial reliability testing). The last drill I did on Friday at the end of the day with a hot, dirty, and dry P30L is to fire 45 rounds back to back without a magazine in place. No malfunctions of any kind, and every round sailed out of the ejection port positively and consistently. This gun has passed its initial reliability testing and is now ready for prime-time as my first line with its companion P30. It is now clean, lubed and in the carry rotation.
    Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
    "If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".

  6. #26
    Member Munson's Avatar
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    So when is this apex extractor going to be available? After about 23K rounds with only 4 malfunctions (2 of which were bad ammo), I had 2 fail to extracts just like the above picture today. Both were fired cases turned around backwards. They happened about 100 rounds apart from each other. This is a Gen 3 G19 OD. I've pulled it out of carry use until I get the problem resolved. Unlike alot of the above posts, I have never seen erratic ejection patterns. This thing has ran pretty flawless for many years and a pretty high round count.
    Last edited by Munson; 09-04-2012 at 08:56 PM.

  7. #27
    Mid September

  8. #28
    THE THIRST MUTILATOR Nephrology's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Munson View Post
    So when is this apex extractor going to be available? After about 23K rounds with only 4 malfunctions (2 of which were bad ammo), I had 2 fail to extracts just like the above picture today. Both were fired cases turned around backwards. They happened about 100 rounds apart from each other. This is a Gen 3 G19 OD. I've pulled it out of carry use until I get the problem resolved. Unlike alot of the above posts, I have never seen erratic ejection patterns. This thing has ran pretty flawless for many years and a pretty high round count.
    When is the last time you changed the RSA? With that many rounds, the RSA is bound to be going sooner rather than later, assuming you haven't swapped it out recently.

    Not to say there aren't other ethings possibly at play, but let's start there first.

  9. #29
    Member Munson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nephrology View Post
    When is the last time you changed the RSA? With that many rounds, the RSA is bound to be going sooner rather than later, assuming you haven't swapped it out recently.

    Not to say there aren't other ethings possibly at play, but let's start there first.
    It was changed out about 5k rounds ago. I believe its recommended to change it out after about 3-5K rounds so maybe that could be the problem. I am going to drop a new extractor in there and see if that helps out also. Thanks for the help

  10. #30
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    More time later for a better post, but with the 3rd gen Glock 40s you want to swap the RSA out every 3000 rounds max, 2000 rounds is more gooder.

    I have seen more problems from worn RSAs in G22s than anything else.

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