I need some.
Every time I see a picture of a .38 Special cartridge next to a 9mm cartridge, I think, "How is the .38 not like the Hammer of Thor compared to the 9mm?" It seems like there is so much extra room for more... stuff. What's going on here?
I need some.
Every time I see a picture of a .38 Special cartridge next to a 9mm cartridge, I think, "How is the .38 not like the Hammer of Thor compared to the 9mm?" It seems like there is so much extra room for more... stuff. What's going on here?
"The victor is not victorious if the vanquished does not consider himself so."
― Ennius
It was designed as a black powder cartridge if I'm not mistaken.Originally Posted by Guerrero
I need some.
Every time I see a picture of a .38 Special cartridge next to a 9mm cartridge, I think, "How is the .38 not like the Hammer of Thor compared to the 9mm?" It seems like there is so much extra room for more... stuff. What's going on here?
Stuffing it to full capacity with smokeless powder is where all the 38/44 and 357 mag stuff came from.
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This is correct.
9mm also operates at significantly higher pressures.
“Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat.”
― Theodore Roosevelt
I see it as S&W making a play on the already successful .38 Colt, which was the transitional pistol cartridge of that size, BP to smokeless.
The competitor, Colt, designed .38 Colt as a heel based BP cartridge and put it in place for the M1877 and later the swing out M1892 and "New Army" so they continued that design through the M1905. That was a cartridge that transitioned from BP to smokeless.
When smokeless arrived and Colt took the same cartridge to a smokeless load, S&W saw their opportunity and essentially magnumized the .38 Colt when they introduced .38 special, lengthening the case and shrinking the bore to .357 to get away from heel based bullets, thus changing the chambers from straight thru bore like the Colts being produced then. The stepped chamber for .38 special meant they could get more pressure in the chamber of the same length cylinder, with that design change and no more need for the excessive lubrication the BP cartridges had required. But to win in the market use, they used the same form factor that was already in play with respect to case length and cylinder size of all those revolvers in the market.
Then the .38/44 then gave them a frame that let them fill that very case up a bit more.
I have read a lot of articles that claim all the .38 special ammo made prior to WW II was all much hotter than the .38 special ammo loaded today.
I think S&W recognized that if they took their .38 S&W cartridge, which was their BP to smokeless transitional cartridge, which is similar in length to the 9mm and appropriately rimmed for revolvers, to the levels smokeless powder would allow them to, they would be facing a major disaster in terms of the round being loaded into their (and several other makers) of the millions of break top revolvers chambered for it. It would certainly destroy those guns and probably injure many in the process.
By making it so long that it would only chamber in the full size solid frame revolvers, and not fit into older guns chambered for .38 Colt because it was longer, and certainly none of their short cylinder guns, they gave the world a great margin of safety.
Last edited by fatdog; 08-20-2021 at 12:08 PM.
My understanding is that all of your points are factually and historically correct except the .38 Colt chambers: because they are full diameter through bored for a heeled bullet the diameter of the case, it is entirely possible to put a .38 Special, .38 Special +P or .38/44, and possibly even a .357 Magnum (depending on cylinder length) in a gun chambered for .38 Colt. The Army revolvers were the same size as a Python, so some might think that’s even a safe idea. Pressures are higher, but there will also be blow-by due to the smaller diameter bullet.
There were notices in literature from the time period when the Army revolvers were common saying to never put the S&W Special or Magnum rounds in a Colt Army revolver even if they fit.
Yep. The 38 is much gun if you load it hot in a heavy-frame revolver. But there were too many older, weaker guns around in the 30s, which led to the 357 Magnum and today’s relatively mild 38 loads and data.
Okie John
“The reliability of the 30-06 on most of the world’s non-dangerous game is so well established as to be beyond intelligent dispute.” Finn Aagaard
"Don't fuck with it" seems to prevent the vast majority of reported issues." BehindBlueI's
You missed my point, so I guess I did not explain it well.
Yes it has and is possible to put .38 SP ammo in a 1905 Colt New Army chambered for .38 Colt straight bore and fire them, I have done it, owned a pair of them I used to load .38 Colt BP for them.
There is significant blow by since the bore of the Colt barrel is about .377 (depending on the vintage) and using a hollow base .355 wadcutter can even compensate for that a bit and get a seal before the bullet exits.
However when S&W introduced stepped chambers, and downsized the bore, then lengthened their version of the case, they insure that their revolvers would have higher pressures and velocities than the Colt straight through bored revolvers, especially if Colt did not employ the old heel based cartridges.
They were able to load to higher pressures giving their gun/cartridge higher velocity than what Colt could safety achieve with their platform.
Random .38 knowledge off the top of my head, so don't hold the salt:
The first "+p" designation came when .38 special pressure was dropped for the first time, and the new "+p" standard was the old "normal pressure."
I believe the max pressure standards for .38 and .38+p have been reduced 2-3 times since the "+p" designation was created.
If I'm full of it, I'd love a correction. If I'm not, I'd love some proof.
Some recent talk here involving .357-level loads in .38 brass for heavy bullets, replicating .38/44 loads, which has been interesting for me. My Lee .38 die from the 70s/80s has a sheet with loading data for bullets of up to 200 grains!
REPETITION CREATES BELIEF
REPETITION BUILDS THE SEPARATE WORLDS WE LIVE AND DIE IN
NO EXCEPTIONS
Looked up my reloading notes from days gone by.
My Colt 1892 barrel had a .373 bore and my 1905 date modification gun was .358 bore barrel, apparently made after they made the change in barrels in those frames. Both were straight bore cylinders of .381.
The 1892 worked fine once I started loading 148gr hollow base .357 wad cutters behind 22gr of FFFG in the .38LC cases, bullets crimped at the 2nd groove (not flush). Meaning that was apparently enough pressure to make the base pop and fill the bore, otherwise the 125gr cast .358 bullets would not group worth crap in that gun.
No chrono data that I can find, I doubt I bothered since they were only shot with black powder loads developed for CAS (double action guns are legal in NCOWS as long as they are pre-1999 designs).
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