The "Suited Shootist" Got Made at Work

[Borderland]

Yes, I managed to sit through the entire story but kept asking myself: WTF is it with the decanter of whiskey/glass.

Was it to alleviate nervousness? Liquid courage? Stage prop?

I’m not interested in how or when he drinks….it just struck me as an odd setup for his “presentation.”

George

He's wants to look like the guy who tells all of his buddies in the bar over a few drinks what a bad shake he got by his employer, girlfriend, ex. I've got a friend who calls me every now and then with his work problems after a few drinks. We had the same employer. He wants to quit but can't because it's 100K a year with medical and 60% pension. He's 55 so he has a few years left to work.

[BehindBlueI's]

I cannot climb into his brain, but my interpretation of the CW challenge was to people that are employed as instructors or commentators advocating people do something that they had never actually done, when the instructor types would not be at the same risk of employer retribution. More of a Put Up Or Shut Up, this was my understanding.

I understand that, but it's still a huge ask and someone taking him up on it or not is really indicative of if they believe their own statements or the validity of the statements. You could tell me that submarines were originally designed as aircrafts and if I want to prove you wrong go work at Home Depot for 6 weeks. My refusal to do so doesn't make you right. That's my only point.

[mmc45414]

I understand that, but it's still a huge ... That's my only point.

Yes, I think my posts in this thread sound adversarial, but I agree with you, it is not a reasonable thing to ask people to do just to prove something.

But I also think it is unreasonable to urge people to risk THIER job when the "influencer" hasn't risked their's.

As I thought about this a little more, I realized I do sorta have some relevant experience. My father and I operated a couple of coin operated laundromats back when the whole damn state of Ohio was an NPE. There was no provision for getting a CHL, concealed carry was universally illegal, and your only allowance was a potential defense as having gone armed to be "prudent", and that probably depended on the prosecutor that caught the case, you might still be charged and lose. But when I would be in there collecting the cash, in front of a big picture window on a busy street, (after dark in the winter) I thought it would be prudent to be packing. But for sure that meant a PPK or J-frame, probably under three layers of clothing and sweating it the whole time.

[HeadHunter]

Very interesting. Replying to save for later when I have access to my VPN.

[Cecil Burch]

I understand that, but it's still a huge ask and someone taking him up on it or not is really indicative of if they believe their own statements or the validity of the statements. You could tell me that submarines were originally designed as aircrafts and if I want to prove you wrong go work at Home Depot for 6 weeks. My refusal to do so doesn't make you right. That's my only point.

That was exactly the point of the challenge. It is a HUGE risk to do this just. But the people being challenged are the ones who tell EVERYONE ELSE that it is no big deal to do do the same exact thing day after day. The people being challenged are pontificating on aspects of life that they have zero idea about, and stand to lose nothing, but feel no compunction to tell someone else that they should ignore risks that may wipe them out financially.

The challenge is entirely about telling someone to risk it all when you don't have to suffer yourself, and having zero personal experience to advise someone to do so.

It is no different that a celebrity who live their entire life in a show business bubble tell someone in middle America that they should give up their guns.

[Moylan]

I might have missed it, but I don't think Werner's original blog post got linked here. So here it is: https://tacticalprofessor.wordpress....al-protection/

There's also a podcast about it, IIRC, with Johnston and Lauer but I don't have time or energy to listen to a podcast right now.

The context of the 'challenge' is a discussion of Dale Carnegie's Win Friends and Influence People stuff. Here's where the longish post gets to the challenge part:

Another aspect of the training community I often see is a lack of connection to the everyday lives that our students live. There are several worthwhile items from Secrets of Success in this regard.

Become a Friendlier Person

Be a good listener. Encourage others to talk about themselves.
Talk in terms of the other person’s interests.

Win People to Your Way of Thinking

Try honestly to see things from the other person’s point of view.
Be sympathetic with the other person’s ideas and desires.
Throw down a challenge.

So, I’m going to throw down a challenge to the training community.

Get a job; a real job where you have to fill out a W-4 when you get hired. Just like the jobs your students have.

Right now is a golden opportunity, no pun intended. The end of the year is a relatively slow time for training and there are numerous seasonal positions available in the retail sector. Target, WalMart, and Sears, among others, are all hiring for temporary positions through the end of the year. If you don’t like wearing a uniform, Macy’s and other high end retailers are hiring and will give you an even better environment to test your hypotheses. Get a temporary job in a retail store for a couple of months. Walk a mile in your students’ moccasins while carrying the heater and all the gear you tell them to EDC. See how it works out for you.

If you get fired (or arrested) for a weapons violation or you decide you can’t carry all that crap while working and interacting with people all day without getting made, you owe me a drink. If you work at least 30 hours a week for six weeks in the retail environment with your full EDC loadout, I’ll buy you dinner. Full time sworn LEOs, 16 hours a week will fulfill the challenge. Totally on the honor system; I’ll accept whatever outcome you tell me you had.

So my take on this is that Werner is trying to win people--specifically, certain firearms trainers who tell their students to carry a G34 at work every day--to his point of view, and he's putting one of Dale Cargegie's methods to work. I don't think the point is to actually get trainers to get a job. I think the point is to get trainers to "try honestly to see things from the other person's point of view," and the way he's doing that is to challenge them to imagine what it would actually be like to carry this stuff all day every day in an NPE. After all, many of them have no such concerns at all. It's a pretty good point, I think. How can I help my students do X if I have no idea what it would be like for them to try to do X? It's not: you trainers need to prove to me that you can hide your stuff at a real job. It's: I find that many trainers are insufficiently alert to the real lives of their students, and so to help them improve in that respect I'm going to push on them a bit with this "challenge." That's what I got out of it, anyway.

I'd be keen to know who took up the "challenge" and what the result was.

[Totem Polar]

I do not carry at work, and if I did I wouldn’t tell you. I don’t welcome discussions of a personal nature in the workplace, and definitely don’t discuss self defense topics.

My early career training included the concepts that no one at work can be purely a friend, that every interaction with a coworker has professional consequences. Might sound cynical, but I think it’s actually better to see it that way.

Concur. Words of wisdom, above.


Aaaaand… I’m interested to see @HeadHunter ‘s response to this thread, since he has skin in all aspects of this thread game.

[BehindBlueI's]

That was exactly the point of the challenge. It is a HUGE risk to do this just. But the people being challenged are the ones who tell EVERYONE ELSE that it is no big deal to do do the same exact thing day after day. The people being challenged are pontificating on aspects of life that they have zero idea about, and stand to lose nothing, but feel no compunction to tell someone else that they should ignore risks that may wipe them out financially.

The challenge is entirely about telling someone to risk it all when you don't have to suffer yourself, and having zero personal experience to advise someone to do so.

It is no different that a celebrity who live their entire life in a show business bubble tell someone in middle America that they should give up their guns.

I understand that and agree with the point. My point remains it's a huge ask and the fact someone didn't do it is really not indicative of the point being made. To me it's not a huge ask because of the risk because there is none in my situation, it's a huge ask because WTF would I want to work a part-time retail job for a few months? The time factor is where I was going with it.

[Trooper224]

Concur. Words of wisdom, above.


Aaaaand… I’m interested to see @HeadHunter ‘s response to this thread, since he has skin in all aspects of this thread game.

I don't think CFs point can be stressed enough. First rule of gun club is, you don't talk about gun club. If you don't know me well, you have know idea I carry a gun. You don't even know that's an interest of mine. Especially now that I no longer hang around with a bunch of cops. It's like being a prepper, no one should know what you have in your basement because you shouldn't be volunteering that information.


I don't think Claude was actually challenging anyone to get a job, but rather speaking metaphorically to get people to think.

[Guerrero]

I might have missed it, but I don't think Werner's original blog post got linked here. So here it is: https://tacticalprofessor.wordpress....al-protection/

There's also a podcast about it, IIRC, with Johnston and Lauer but I don't have time or energy to listen to a podcast right now.

Here:

http://ballisticradio.com/2018/02/14...ary-11th-2018/