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Thread: Things more important than a sub-second draw....

  1. #1

    Things more important than a sub-second draw....

    @jlw



    Is there a summary of this discussion? Can we discuss it here?

    I feel like this discussion should involve people who have reliable and accurate sub-second draws to be a valid conversation.

    It's like saying: why running shoe brands don't matter because you have to consider the socks as well.

    Well sure, if you wear sandpaper socks then the shoe brands don't matter as much.

    But assuming that the non-shoe things are the same and relatively optimal, then the shoe thing differences DO matter.

    It's kind of a straw man argument.

    If you don't have a reliable and accurate sub-second draw, you might not understand what that actually means for your shooting and proficiency.

    This is hit on and well fleshed out in competition gaming.

    Drawing from a holster is about your index speed, consistency and accuracy. It's not about drawing from a holster. The skills you build with a sub-second draw to a small target (like a 7 yard head box) means you can basically look at someplace and the gun and bullets go there with precision, confidence and accuracy.

    It also winds up a surrogate for ability to transition and present the gun seamlessly and subconsciously competently on a target, arguably the gold standard of proficiency.

    So sure, there are things more important than a sub-second draw.

    But in the world of handgun competence, it's short hand for someone who, when can hit something reasonably small in that time period has achieved a good standard or proficiency with their index and trigger pull.

    The question I have for people is: Why don't you have or work towards a sub-second draw?

    This discussion might make some people uncomfortable, but I feel like the importance of getting to this speed and subconscious competence can't be understated. In the Bakersfield PD time standards, they're some of the most stringent on the draw. The old FAM is also an indication and from all indications, the Bakersfield and FAM were very skilled and successful having honed that level of skill in addition to the non-sub-second shooting skills.
    Pointing at cardboard things.... CO GM, working on Open
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  2. #2
    I clicked through a few sections, I just don't have the time to sit for 45 minutes and watch it this week. So I apologize if I missed the mark a bit.
    Are there things more important, sure. Is that a relevant question, I don't think so.

    The great thing about having an accurate sub second draw is not the speed to a first shot on paper. It is about having the gun up and a appropriate sight picture for the situation after the decision to draw has been made. It does not have to be about the shot. It can always be dialed down when needed. It is much more difficult to use if one never had it.

    I never specifically sought to have a consistent sub-second draw, it just happened over the course of years of practice.
    The notion that by having a sub-second draws means that I did not work on any other skills is BS. Draws are literally the first movement to nearly all shooting drills, if you work on having a clean draw and the visual acuity to see what you need to see for an accurate shot, the time required will decrease if you teach your body appropriately. On top of that, draws are stupid simple to practice and literally free to do. 5-10 minutes of dry fire a day can work wonders.

    I don't know if it is purposeful or just people talking past each other, but it seems like after a few years of interest in "high performance" shooting skills and gear, the tactical community is circling back to crapping on the people who put in the time and reps.
    Just because I can shoot well doesn't mean I skipped that deescalation class and because I use a red dot to be target focused doesn't mean I inappropriately point guns at people.
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Artemas2 View Post
    I clicked through a few sections, I just don't have the time to sit for 45 minutes and watch it this week. So I apologize if I missed the mark a bit.
    Are there things more important, sure. Is that a relevant question, I don't think so.

    The great thing about having an accurate sub second draw is not the speed to a first shot on paper. It is about having the gun up and a appropriate sight picture for the situation after the decision to draw has been made. It does not have to be about the shot. It can always be dialed down when needed. It is much more difficult to use if one never had it.

    I never specifically sought to have a consistent sub-second draw, it just happened over the course of years of practice.
    The notion that by having a sub-second draws means that I did not work on any other skills is BS. Draws are literally the first movement to nearly all shooting drills, if you work on having a clean draw and the visual acuity to see what you need to see for an accurate shot, the time required will decrease if you teach your body appropriately. On top of that, draws are stupid simple to practice and literally free to do. 5-10 minutes of dry fire a day can work wonders.

    I don't know if it is purposeful or just people talking past each other, but it seems like after a few years of interest in "high performance" shooting skills and gear, the tactical community is circling back to crapping on the people who put in the time and reps.
    Just because I can shoot well doesn't mean I skipped that deescalation class and because I use a red dot to be target focused doesn't mean I inappropriately point guns at people.
    I wish I could like this more than once.

    People donít understand that a fast and accurate draw is a surrogate for a very good index which is useful in every possible shooting situation. Why wouldnít you want more skill. Crapping on it usually comes from people who havenít achieved it or donít understand that itís not just about the draw.
    Pointing at cardboard things.... CO GM, working on Open
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  4. #4
    The speed of my draw is very related to how I draw. I can repeatedly draw in the .50ís by coming on the gun from the side. When I press straight down, my times are around one second. For USPSA, I prefer the slower draw because it gives me a better grip for shooting a whole magazine of shots. Beavertail design also effects draw speed, with a Glock faster for me than a 320 Legion. Comparing draw speed without knowing how the shooter is drawing, and what gun the shooter is drawing, is not an apples to apples comparison.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    Sub-second draw to a small target (like a 7 yard head box) means you can basically look at someplace and the gun and bullets go there with precision, confidence and accuracy.
    @GJM I was taking about a reliable sub-second to a 7 yard head box kind of grip and efficiency.

    I know I canít confidently do that in 0.50. More power to you if you can!
    Pointing at cardboard things.... CO GM, working on Open
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  6. #6
    Are you limiting this to competition OR life on da streetz?

    Because outside of the competition realm I think the metric I would use for the draw is the same one that I learned as an Army Jumpmaster 'I will be sure, always.'

    By that I mean - speed is fine, as long as you don't flub anything. In competition or practice, no big deal. In real life a flubbed draw COULD mean death or serious injury.

    Kind of repeating myself - I think a sub-second draw as a metric is not of ultimate relevance. From my perspective there is a distant difference between standing on the line, taking a couple breathes, shaking it out, hearing 'shooter ready....' and 2:00 in the morning with a driver's license and flashlight in hand when the bad guy decides to go for it - move, drop, draw all at once.

    Different metrics. A good solid foundational draw is essential - speed is not the most important metric, most important is the ability to quickly and absolutely get the pistol oriented on target, regardless of position or movement - in other words accuracy and precision of movement in lieu of all out speed.

    That being said - you need to go until you fall of the rails and then dial it down to 'I will be sure, always.'

    JMO.
    Adding nothing to the conversation since 2015....
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    Are you limiting this to competition OR life on da streetz?

    Because outside of the competition realm I think the metric I would use for the draw is the same one that I learned as an Army Jumpmaster 'I will be sure, always.'

    By that I mean - speed is fine, as long as you don't flub anything. In competition or practice, no big deal. In real life a flubbed draw COULD mean death or serious injury.

    Kind of repeating myself - I think a sub-second draw as a metric is not of ultimate relevance. From my perspective there is a distant difference between standing on the line, taking a couple breathes, shaking it out, hearing 'shooter ready....' and 2:00 in the morning with a driver's license and flashlight in hand when the bad guy decides to go for it - move, drop, draw all at once.

    Different metrics. A good solid foundational draw is essential - speed is not the most important metric, most important is the ability to quickly and absolutely get the pistol oriented on target, regardless of position or movement - in other words accuracy and precision of movement in lieu of all out speed.

    That being said - you need to go until you fall of the rails and then dial it down to 'I will be sure, always.'

    JMO.
    Taking the Bakersfield PD COF, it seems it worked very well for them to make sure their skills were fast and accurate on the range so they could do it confidently on the streets. They even ďcompetedĒ against each other in their qual which included two shots on target in 1.5s total or less from duty gear.

    Doing it on the range doesnít mean you can do it on the street. But their experience suggests we should be pushing for that technical standard on the range.

    AndÖ

    If you canít do it on the range, you definitely canít do it on the street.
    Pointing at cardboard things.... CO GM, working on Open
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  8. #8
    Lowly Production C-Class olstyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    That being said - you need to go until you fall off the rails and then dial it down to 'I will be sure, always.'
    Speaking as someone who does not have a sub 1 second draw but definitely sees the utility in having one, that sentence sounds like a recipe for getting there, at least assuming that the "go until you fall off the rails" part is continuously repeated over time until whatever metric you decide is "enough" is met with the dialed down version.
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  9. #9
    Respectfully, if you are going to comment on the video, I ask that you watch it or listen to the podcast version prior to doing so. Please don't respond simply based upon the title.
    I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by jlw View Post
    Respectfully, if you are going to comment on the video, I ask that you watch it or listen to the podcast version prior to doing so. Please don't respond simply based upon the title.
    The podcast is 43 minutes or so, can you say when relevant parts of the discussion are?
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
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