Duty Magazines Carried on Outer Carrier

[babypanther]

Great points gents, and I thank you for the discussion points. Some guys have brought up SWAT, but what I am really trying to focus on is Patrol. My SWAT belt and my patrol belt have the pistol mags in the same place, more or less, and when I can shoot matches its obviously in a similar location too.

MY issues with the mags on the vest are as follows:

It is faster for me to carry the magazines on my weak side, at around the hip bone on the belt.

I can still reach my magazine pouch with the strong hand if the weak side arm goes down.

Adding pouches for 2 if not 3 pistol magazines takes up valuable real estate, when you add in bodycam, flashlight, pens, cuff keys, note pad, cuffs (or two), OC, Taser (which due to the mounting system and drawstroke takes a massive amount of real estate), radio, etc etc.

In addition to the real estate taken up, when placing the mags centerline or trying to stack them on other pouches, this can rapidly start to add bulk outwards. I have even gone the other way with my Entry Vest, and placing my mags and radio under the armpit.

Along with the bulk, this can get dicey when going over obstacles. The mags (and let's be honest everything else) can get stuck in a chain link fence or whatever, but then you also have a weird top heavy balance with all the weight north of your belt line.

[TGS]

Why are your personal preferences a reason to prohibit other people from carrying pistol mags on their vest?

[HCM]

Why are your personal preferences a reason to prohibit other people from carrying pistol mags on their vest?

This ^^^ as long as it’s reasonable. I would mandate the mags being on the front or the vest or at least forward of centerline. I run all my mags on the belt except a single AR Mag pouch on the carrier but at least they have ammo.

I have one goofy fucker (a supervisor of course) with pistol and AR mags upside down and sideways on the back of his vest. It looks like something he saw in a comic book.

[Ethang]

My personal opinion as a LE Instructor only goes so far. What works for me, might not work for somebody else, so my personal bias could cloud an option that works well for others. Most engagements will be solved with what is in the weapon, but the issue then becomes ingrained response for the reload. The big problem is qualifying/training with equipment placement that is not what the officer wears on the street. I would rather mandate they qual/train how they wear the gear on the street, than mandating how they wear the gear on the street. Show the benefits and issues with each mode of carry and let the officer decide what works best for them. When I came through the academy things were mandated that had been obsolete for years, but they were mandatory. After I graduated I carried what worked best for me.

[BehindBlueI's]

This ^^^ as long as it’s reasonable. I would mandate the mags being on the front or the vest or at least forward of centerline. I run all my mags on the belt except a single AR Mag pouch on the carrier but at least they have ammo.

I have one goofy fucker (a supervisor of course) with pistol and AR mags upside down and sideways on the back of his vest. It looks like something he saw in a comic book.

What's the theory? Others can reload off his back stash while using him for cover/concealment?

Perhaps a bit less snarky, a reload you can reach while prone without rocking up or "shrimping" to access the magazine?

[HCM]

What's the theory? Others can reload off his back stash while using him for cover/concealment?

Perhaps a bit less snarky, a reload you can reach while prone without rocking up or "shrimping" to access the magazine?

No, he claims it’s “faster” but refuses to try it on a timer.

[AMC]

No, he claims it’s “faster” but refuses to try it on a timer.

Yeah. The "It works for me" answer. Funny that, when you watch them, it doesn't work...at all. Adding any additional stress factor and they completely fall apart. I've seen some goofy, inefficient magazine placement. The reloads go exactly how you'd expect...including mags flying downrange from the chicken claw grip. But it "works for them".

As to the OP, while I personally don't really care for magazine placement on the armor, that's a 'me' thing. I know several officers now running external vests who really have to move their mags there, just due to fit and access issues. It's the best answer for them when wearing an outer carrier.

The unreinforced nylon pouches with velcro flaps that come with the carriers were not optimal, so Point Blank worked with HSGI to color match their TACO Pistol Mag Pouches to our carriers. That what we recommended. Of course, we were overruled by those who take the 30,000 foot view of things, and therefore know way more about this stuff than us Range Monkeys.

[ST911]

My issue with permissive configuration of external armor is troops turn into cargo trucks. Intended and sold as relief of back strain from lightening the duty belt, many just hang more crap on their armor to the point they can't reach it, use it effectively, fight in their armor, or employ long guns or irregular shooting positions. If they're fat, it goes from bad to worse.

That said, I'm a fan of external carriers and options. Smart options.

OP- Let them mount mags on the armor. Work it dry, work it live at next range day, and when their choice doesn't work have them change.

[Screwball]

My issue with permissive configuration of external armor is troops turn into cargo trucks. Intended and sold as relief of back strain from lightening the duty belt, many just hang more crap on their armor to the point they can't reach it, use it effectively, fight in their armor, or employ long guns or irregular shooting positions. If they're fat, it goes from bad to worse.

That said, I'm a fan of external carriers and options. Smart options.

OP- Let them mount mags on the armor. Work it dry, work it live at next range day, and when their choice doesn't work have them change.

We have a few officers like that at my port… one of which gets annoying with it. He put a pouch on the carrier, and then another identical pouch in front of that. Two ammo pouches, in addition to the double belt pouch, and radio pouch up front. Now, he mounted his taser on there… which I can’t wait until next LLI, because I don’t think he can get it out.

He gets all high/mighty over it. “Well, if I need it… I have it.” I’ve called him out on it a few times, being just because you are lugging crap doesn’t equate to how good of an officer someone is. I mean, you really don’t need a boot polishing kit on your person… and it shows that he never uses it, so why have it? It can stay in your locker, just the same.

We were going over old immigration gear during one training… and he questioned about the admission stamp holster. Myself and three other officers in unison said, “you don’t need that s***!” Someone was butthurt the rest of the day, and the instructor told us not to bully… but said he was thinking it, as well.

My carrier is pretty slimmed down. Radio pouch at like 7:00. Up front, tourniquet on right, radiation monitor in center (have to wear it, if I’m not wearing the vest, I just put it in my pocket), two magazine pouches on left… inner one has my flashlight, outer one is a spare magazine. Might have a pen or two weaved in somewhere (I’m on five of seven days off… last thing I’m really worrying about right now [emoji41]), as well as a knife.

Since our qualifications are 46 rounds (duty carry), I’ll swap thru which pouch I load/make ready from (do the same in training, as well). Sometimes I’ll use the top pouch on my belt (I carry my reload in front of the holster, in horizontal orientation). Other times, the carrier. I’ve yet to have an issue accessing any of them.

[HCM]

My issue with permissive configuration of external armor is troops turn into cargo trucks. Intended and sold as relief of back strain from lightening the duty belt, many just hang more crap on their armor to the point they can't reach it, use it effectively, fight in their armor, or employ long guns or irregular shooting positions. If they're fat, it goes from bad to worse.

That said, I'm a fan of external carriers and options. Smart options.

OP- Let them mount mags on the armor. Work it dry, work it live at next range day, and when their choice doesn't work have them change.

This is a great point. Many of our people do not understand the concept of first line /second line gear. At our last range session the same supervisor I mentioned was telling his people their belts and carriers should have redundant gear on both resulting in the cargo truck effect.