Duty Magazines Carried on Outer Carrier

[babypanther]

I am a Deputy assigned to my department's Training Unit. Yesterday I was told by my boss to come up with a quick training plan to be presented at roll call for people assigned to patrol that want to carry their Glock magazines on their vest instead of the gunbelt. I am opposed to the idea, I am not a personal fan of mounting the pistol magazines higher on the body than the beltline, but that is personal preference more than anything.

I have caught/seen multiple people with pouches on the vest above mags or even the pistol in the holster in the LE world, and I am sure this is what was ocurring for the complaint to be brought up.

My reason for posting to this section of the forum is; aside from my personal preference, is there a huge tactical/technical reason I'm not seeing with regard to allowing people to move pistol magazines off of their gunbelts and onto their outer carriers, both from a gun fighting perspective but also a combatives perspective?

[TGS]

My reason for posting to this section of the forum is; aside from my personal preference, is there a huge tactical/technical reason I'm not seeing with regard to allowing people to move pistol magazines off of their gunbelts and onto their outer carriers, both from a gun fighting perspective but also a combatives perspective?

I look at it from a different perspective.

What reason do you have for prohibiting people from doing it?

[lwt16]

Some carry that way here also. I'm faster with my reloads off the gun belt and that's the way I've been "rolling" for quite some time. While most of our gunfights were done with what's on-board the gun and reloads never much mattered on the outcome, I still prefer to be Mr. Speedy if the gun runs dry. If I carried mine in my vest, I'd have the velcro flaps holding them down and thus, slowing me down. I'd have to re-train a lot.....and I would prefer to utilize that time working on first shot hits from the holster instead of re-learning where to grab for a full mag.

Our vests aren't modular and are pre-set from the factory. There is a pocket I could do mags with but I prefer to have a second set of cuffs in that pouch.

Does your qualification have a reload section with a time limit? Ours sort of does but the times are pretty generous.

[Le Français]

The biggest factor is how much training and practice the deputies will get with whatever magazine location they use. In theory, all else being equal, having the mags on the chest should be faster when shooting two-handed; the support hand has less distance to cover to retrieve the reload and bring it back to the gun. However, all else is not necessarily equal: If users have years of practice drawing from the belt, that matters. Likewise, as already mentioned, chest-mounted pouches might be slower to open than belt-mounted ones.

As for combatives, I think there’d be arguments for and against each location. If you’re mounted by your opponent on the ground, anything on the sides of your hips might be harder to access than something on your chest. If you’re in your opponent’s side control, your chest might be hard to access. (Of course, would you really be reloading in such a scenario? Maybe, I guess...) Standing up, mag pouches on the chest might be vulnerable to a “grab”, but so can your belt.

When I was in uniform and carrying equipment on my vest, I put everything on it except my pistol and mags. One reason was that I sometimes shed my armor when at the office, and I wanted to retain the basics on my person. Another reason was that I was shooting a lot of USPSA matches, and I wanted my mags in the same place across the board, so that practice with one would transfer to the other.

[Hambo]

I carried mags on my SWAT vest because the armor we had interefered with belt mounted pouches. This might be why officers want another option. The pouch I had put on my gear had snap down flaps, which slowed reloads but kept the mags from getting pulled out by the slings we used at that time.

If you're worried about reload speed, why not run some average/below average shooters through some drills and compare times. If you're worried about officer getting stabbed, pounded, or otherwise injured because they have a selection of dedicated/improvised weapons on their vest, that's another story.

[Lost River]

Things to consider,

Can the mags be reached with either hand when mounted on the vest or belt?

Can the mags be reached with either hand when mounted on the vest or belt when wearing a patrol rifle?

Have you practiced handgun reloading drills while retaining a long gun?


Guys may even mount a pistol on their carrier as opposed to their belt, if they can reach it with their non dominant hand. As many are aware, in LE there are quite a few people that are not in shape, and if their primary hand was disabled while they were wearing a vest, they would not be able to get to their handgun. Wearing it on their body armor, where it is available to either hand eliminates that issue. Yes, (as always) there is a weapons retention issue, and some new training techniques may need to be considered for that position, but that is another topic.

simply put, what works best for one person, may not be optimal for another.

Only through experimentation will you find what works.



I would not be too quick to condemn the idea of mags, or even pistols on carriers until you have given everyone a chance to work out what is best for them, as one size does not fit all.

Cheers!

[Horseman]

Anecdotally, I see a lot of shooters struggling with manipulation and efficient reloads when they carry magazines on outer vests. It seems that higher carry on the vest exacerbates the problem. If you think of the sequence of steps needed for a reload from a vertical belt pouch, the magazine has to be turned 180 degrees at some point in the middle. I've watched shooters struggling with that turn when they give themselves less space to execute it (such as high-mounted vest-carried pouches). Different pouch orientation might help somewhat.

It would be good to put this on a timer with various shooters to see if it's actually "a thing", or just looks slower.

[KevH]

I've worn mags on an external vest carrier in the past when in K9 and investigations (this was pre vest in patrol days). I used the older Eagle Industries pouches and mounted them low directly above where I would normally carry mags on a duty belt. Honestly, with a little practice, I didn't find it much slower or awkward than mags on a belt. Just make sure they train with it and get used to it prior to deployment.

Just make sure they don't mount them up high or in some position dissimilar to where they would carry them on a belt.

Edited to add: Keep the gun off the vest. We've had at least one guy request that recently. I consider that one a no-go for a number of reasons.

[Coyotesfan97]

When I carried my 1911 I had a three mag pouch on my belt and I carried another mag or two on my carrier. I used my belt mags first and then went to the vest mags. I carried them low on the carrier just above the bottom of the vest.

[jnc36rcpd]

While I prefer belt carry of magazines, I don't think mounting them of the vest is necessarily a problem. While we can debate whether magazines are easier to retain on the vest or the belt, a suspect obtaining a magazine isn't as critical as one obtaining anything else. The gun, OC, Taser, baton, and flashlight could be easily used against you. Unless the bad guy has an empty gun consistent with your magazine, a snatched magazine is not as urgent a problem as a lost weapon.

Accessing the magazines is an issue of placement and practice. I'd emphasize that in your training. Some officers may mount the carrier without really thinking it through. They will be able to access the magazine during your training class, but presentation may collapse on the range or in a shootout. This will require guidance on your part and experimentation on theirs.

I tend to agree that mounting the magazines lower on the vest in a vertical configuration is best. If they mount the magazines higher, it may be easier to place the carrier to the gun side. This reduces the chicken wing effect of presenting the magazine from the support side. That said, other equipment placed adjacent to the magazine carrier may hinder presentation.

You may also consider issues such as horizontal carry. While I've never seen it done, some want the experience of being trend-setting or unique. (Ask why my former department issued FNS-9's.) No matter how the carrier is mounted, you'll want to ensure the magazines can be accessed with either hand.

I'd also want some input regarding what magazine carriers are authorized. I've seen some with dubious retention.

At some point, I'd suggest running drills on the range to see how reloads go. Have officers download their magazines and run some drills that require reloading under pressure. That will hopefully show if things will break down under stress.