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Thread: .38-44 Learning has occurred!

  1. #1
    Member Crazy Dane's Avatar
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    .38-44 Learning has occurred!

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    Quote Originally Posted by revchuck38 View Post
    If that’s a Lyman 358429 or a copy thereof, it was designed as a .38/44 bullet rather than a .357 bullet. You need to load it in .38 Special brass. Do some research on .38/44 or .38 Heavy Duty loads. I have some I’ve loaded in .38 brass over six grains of Unique and it runs 1070 fps from my 4” M28. Note that this load is considered too hot to run in most .38s and is usually shot in.357s.
    and a lot of research, I finally got around to loading and testing .38-44 loadings. I still have a lot of work to do but its a start.

    The Elmer Keith load for the Lyman 358429 170gr bullet was 13.5gr of 2400. I started with 12gr and 12.5gr loads. After testing, there is no need to seek further. Due to limited .38 special brass and 3 revolvers to shoot, I only had enough to test 5 rounds of each charge per gun. 10 yards to target, 10ft to chronograph.

    12.5 grains 2400

    Ruger GP100 WC 3" - 1288, good accuracy. covered all 5 with a 2" paster.

    Colt Python 4" - 1363, 2.5" group, could be the shooter. I was surprised at the lack of felt recoil with the Colt. If Colt will produce a 2.5 to 3 inch Python I will sell my Rugers.

    Ruger SP101 2.25" - 1218, Worst group out of the 3 at 4". This load is not intended for this gun, just curious.

    12 grains of 2400

    Ruger GP100 WC 3" - 1195, just under a 2" group.

    Colt Python 4" - 1289, 1.5" group, see why its becoming my fav?

    Ruger SP101 2.25" - 1104, great group, sub 2" but over 4" high from POA.

  2. #2
    I've wondered if I should try something like this in my 3" Model 60 .357... 170gr Keith bullets in .357 brass are right at the front edge of the cylinder, close enough I have not tried to load any for that gun yet.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by WDR View Post
    I've wondered if I should try something like this in my 3" Model 60 .357... 170gr Keith bullets in .357 brass are right at the front edge of the cylinder, close enough I have not tried to load any for that gun yet.
    That combination would hurt on both ends!

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by revchuck38 View Post
    That combination would hurt on both ends!
    I can confirm that heavy bullets in a 22-23ish ounce gun does hurt. I made the choice (mistake?) to put a cylinder full of 180gr WFN through that gun... I wont do that again outside of duress. Luckily I have a 5.5" Blackhawk Flat Top I picked up to finish that box of ammo in.

    I figured a middling .38-44/.357 load might be more tolerable, but I have not tried it. 13.5gr of 2400 under 158gr XTP's in Starline .357 cases is my current woods/desert bumming load for that gun, which isn't terrible.

  5. #5
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    Be careful with .38-44 data as much of it was created "seat of pants" and is way over pressure. Hopefully @Outpost75 will jump in here with the word on this.
    Regional Government Sales Manager for Aimpoint, Inc. USA
    Co-owner Hardwired Tactical Shooting (HiTS)

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Dobbs View Post
    Be careful with .38-44 data as much of it was created "seat of pants" and is way over pressure. Hopefully @Outpost75 will jump in here with the word on this.
    That is one reason I have not tried it. And I still have a .38 Airweight that I'd prefer not to mistakenly put .38-44 type stuff in.

  7. #7
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    This pressure-tested data from Larry Gibson:

    38 SPL with 170 gr Cast Bullets & Alliant 2400 Pressure Test

    Larry Gibson - Often on the forum someone asks about loading 160 – 180 gr cast bullets over 2400 powder in the 38 SPL for use in S&W 38/40 N frames along with 357 chambered handgun/rifles. The questions usually center around start and max loads. I have a bit of pressure test data on the Lyman 358156 seated out to the 2nd crimp groove loaded over 2400 in 38 SPL cases for use in 3844 or 357 handguns as that is what that bullet was designed for. The 358156 has become my favorite bullet of choice in the 357 Magnum for use with top end magnum loads. Also, if I was loading +P+ 38 SPLs for use in 357 magnums that is the bullet I would use. Some seem to want to use the heavier bullets though so I’ve pressure tested two different bullets [36-168K & 36-175H supplied by Ed Harris (Outpost75)].

    Unfortunately, I no longer had a 170 gr Lyman “Keith” 358429 mould when I started pressure testing. I never developed an affinity for that bullet in the 357 or 38 SPL so long ago when I traded off an OM Ruger BH I let the mould go with it. I regret letting the Ruger go but not the 358421 mould. With the receipt of the 36-168K (169 gr) & 36-175H (184 gr) bullets I loaded them in 10 shot test strings of 8 – 12 gr in 1 gr increments. I used W-W 38 SPL cases and WSP primers. Alliant 2400 was used. All charges were thrown using a Lyman 55 powder thrower. The bullets were crimped in the crimp groove with moderate crimp.

    Testing was done last Monday, May 22, at the local range here. Temperature was 90 degrees with 7% humidity. Testing was done in the shade so the ambient temperature is also the temperature of the ammunition.

    The test firearm was a Contender with a 7.94” barrel. The pressure data and velocity was obtained via a strain gauge attached over the chamber connected to the Oehler M43 PBL. The M43 corrects the screen velocity to muzzle velocity and I posted muzzle velocity. Chronographing similar loads in a 6” barreled Ruger Security Six results in 150 – 200 fps less velocity out of the revolver, depending upon barrel-cylinder gap. Test results shown here are averages of 10 shots fired in each test string;


    36-168K (169 gr) with Alliant 2400
    Load……Vel……..PSI
    8.0……..923……20,100
    9.0…….1065…..22,800
    10.0…..1151…..24,600
    11.0…..1291…..27,000
    12.0…..1392…..28,900

    36-175H (184 gr) with Alliant 2400
    Load……Vel……..PSI
    8.0……..948……22,500
    9.0…….1094…..24,400
    10.0.....1185…..25,500
    11.0…..1298…...28,100
    12.0…..1396……29,700

    LMG


    And here is my own chronograph data testing vintage .38-44 loads and modern handloads. Actual revolver velocities are less than factory catalog figures obtained in solid test barrels, similar to Larry's TC Contender test barrel:

    Factory .38 Special +P and .357 Mag. Velocities and .38 Special (.38-44) Handloads

    .357 Factory Loads Reference:______S&W Model 28 4”____Colt New Service .357 Mag. 5”

    .357 Mag. Super-X 158-gr.Lubaloy__1236, 8 Sd (fr.S&W Mod. 28)__1307 fps, 36 Sd__1950s
    .357 Mag. Rem-UMC 158-gr. SWC__1221 fps, 23 Sd(S&W Mod28)_1287 fps, 27 Sd___1950s

    .38 Special Factory Loads Reference: S&W .38-44 HD 4”____Colt New Service .357 Mag. 5”

    Super-X 158-grain Metal Penetrating__939 fps, 9 Sd____________1009 fps, 13 Sd___1950s
    Old Super-X 158-grain LRN .38-44_____994 fps, 23 Sd___________1024 fps, 11 Sd__Large Primer 1930s
    Winchester X38SPD 158-gr. LHP+P____909 fps, 16 Sd____________936 fps, 16 Sd___1990s

    “.38-44” Handloads in .38 Special brass, W-W cases, WSP primer:

    Saeco #348 146DEWC 8.9 grs.#2400___922 fps,12 Sd___________1005fps, 34 Sd
    Acc. 36-175H 4.0 grs. Bullseye+P______871 fps, 5 Sd_____________902 fps, 14 Sd
    Acc. 36-175H 5.5 grs. AutoComp+P____902 fps, 14 Sd____________947 fps, 11 Sd
    Acc. 36-175H 11.5 IMR4227+P________914 fps, 22 Sd____________981 fps, 18 Sd
    Acc. 36-190T 8.4 #2400+P___________888 fps, 21 Sd_____________926 fps, 37 Sd

  8. #8
    Real .38-44 was a 158 gr roundnose at 1075 to 1125 fps, depending on brand, in the same nominal 6" barrel length that let them claim 850 fps for standard .38s.
    Old Lyman manual says a top load of 11 gr 2400 gave them 1010 fps for the good old 358311.
    Code Name: JET STREAM

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
    Real .38-44 was a 158 gr roundnose at 1075 to 1125 fps, depending on brand, in the same nominal 6" barrel length that let them claim 850 fps for standard .38s. Old Lyman manual says a top load of 11 gr 2400 gave them 1010 fps for the good old 358311.
    Again, the catalog velocity was based upon test firings in a solid barrel, not from a revolver. Lyman's older data was obtained the same way.

    For comparison refer to my measured velocities of actual vintage factory loads above.

  10. #10
    Yes, the manufacturers use straight PV barrels most of the time.
    But I was looking at Lyman 44 for the reloads, and they were getting a maximum 1010 fps from a 6" K38, which is about what you got from factory in a 5" revolver.

    I need to get the 8 3/8" put back on my .357 and see what the old-timers were doing.
    Code Name: JET STREAM

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