Tiny guns

[BehindBlueI's]

Humor? Yes.
Sarcasm called for? Yes
Calling out "Gun Forum Bull-Hockey"? You gosh dang right I will.

1.I agree; not deceptive. I very clearly see an enormous hook-like structure, plus another, rather obvious blockage potential, caused by the rear of the slide, and the rear sight, that makes the auto a total no-go for reliably-expedient draws from pocket, purse, or from some other deep-concealment locations. Yes, the auto holds more rounds, but the time, from stimulus, to getting the first round on-target, in realistic conditions, is so very important.

2.Malemute’s description of the “diagonal dimension” is very important.

3.The extra rounds may not be used, in a real-world fight, if the user’s first rounds are late to arrive at the event, or do not arrive, at all. DB’s discussion of this, in the P&S video/podcast on snubby revolvers, says it far better than I can. The concealed-hammer revolver is the better gun for “getting out of trouble.”

Let's review the inherent problem in these statements with bourbon

1. Belts exist for anything heavier than an Airweight. Pocket carry is specialized, while off-the-body carry is what some may call completely stupid unless it's a small carbine in addition to your actual carry piece. I pocket carry a micro .380 24/7 (which is smaller than a J-frame whilst holding an extra round) and don't get tangled up in "no-gos". Many problems that trainers mention happen to the weapons they aren't training with. Stuff like "Not having a carbine will get you killed" and then shilling for pump-action shotguns as a "renaissance" is called a clue to take everything with a grain of salt. Leviathan Marketing should be in the back of your mind on YouTube and gun media in general. They are paid spokespeople that are no different than the gun rag writers of old.

2. No, it's not. This statement is so common on forums it sickitates me. Statements like "well, I can carry my Desert Eagle just as easy as my PPK" or "You can conceal a G17L just as easy as a G19". No, everyone is wrong. The laws of physics says you are wrong, common sense says you are wrong, and people get banned for calling people out for saying such a statement. The smaller gun is better if it holds more rounds, doesn't have a 12lb DAO trigger, and any given Saturday at gun rental ranges across the USA is some old boomer telling women "Heh, you just need this J-frame Airweight lil' lady". The P365 is smaller than your revolver, splitting hairs about diagonal measuring does not constitute the harder to shoot platform with much limited capacity, and malfunctions that deadline a revolver.

3. Also, packs of race-baiting communists HAVE pulled people from their cars and executed them because "muh racism" like the two Puerto Rican motorists in Chicago or Reginald Denny back the LA Riots. More rounds are always better and any swinging Richard saying otherwise is FOS. This is pistol-forum where some of the most advanced minds on using a handgun come and someone posing a 5 shot DAO .38 Special is the better gun for "getting out of trouble" should be viewed with heavy suspicion if not pure disdain. I don't give a flyin' Friday what some chucklehead said on a podcast, a G19/G26 is a vastly superior weapon able to be morphed into a quasi-SMG with a magazine change. Revolvers exist in 3rd world backwaters today where they don't even trust the police with a Glock. The revolver does nothing better for a personal defense weapon than a P365/Hellcat/G43x/Shield+/MAX-9/MysteryH&K sans hand mobility issues with slides where they do make sense.

I'm low-speed, high-drag with Mr. Magoo like accuracy, but even Mr. Magoo can see why kids prefer the taste of box magazine fed weapons. This is literally the type of gun show crap that everyone rolls their eyes at liking pumping the shotgun and shooting rock salt instead of ventilating a burglar with buckshot. We deserve a better class of poster that can see a flush-fitting 10 round magazine in a reliable pistol smaller than a J-frame is engineering genius and not what I have to hear at Jimbo's Rod and Gun on early Saturday morning because "muh revolver" mythology must be repeated over the 4th cup of coffee by the same guys every weekend for the past 50 years.

/rant

It's kind of funny that in the same post you mention "advanced minds" on PF and then immediately blow one of them off.

I spent 6 years in a busy Homicide/Robbery office. I've personally been involved with the investigation of somewhere north of 1k shootings as either a uniformed officer, assisting detective, or lead detective. I've yet to see anyone targeted for random violence dead with an empty j-frame in their hand. I find j-frames lose a lot of hypothetical gun fights online but very few in the real world in the context under discussion, which is "get out of trouble" vs "looking for trouble." Obviously if your personal threat level is higher (domestic violence situation, you're dealing dope in disputed territory, that sort of thing) then the criteria changes.

I find the notion that 5 shots won't break a crowd intent on pulling you from your car but 10 rounds will break them somewhat laughable.

The revolver is often recommended to non-dedicated users because the manual of arms is simpler and they are much more tolerant of neglect. A self-loading pistol that sits in a drawer unused for three years then is called into service is significantly more likely to malfunction than a revolver in the same situation. The typical recommendation is a k-frame for a drawer gun, but there's a reason folks like DB and I have independently arrived at the same conclusion on matters like that. Simply because that's what the real world has shown us vs what a bunch of hypotheticals assume. What's your real world background?

[Latka Gravas]

My comment was initially with regards to how the 2 guns were oriented in the overlay image, the revolver would sit lower in relation to the auto from the way the picture showed them. The point where they sat in the hand werent lined up, the revolver would sit lower than the auto from the reference point of the overlayed images.

But yes, also in how they sit with regards to how much gun stuck up above the hand with regard to a pocket draw. The auto has a lump at that wider point diagonally that tends to hang up on the draw for many of us, the small revolvers, no, or very little gun protruding above the drawing hand and its rather streamlined in effect.

Attachment 75202

Attachment 75203

I also found I had no snagging issues with a Colt D frame when putting the thumb against the back of the hammer when drawn from a pocket, with very little problem moving to full shootnig grip when its clear. A full shooting grip makes it a bit thicker than the thumb against the back of the hammer.

Another pocket carry help, I wanted to have my pockets reinforced with canvas to help with sight wear-through. I took the simple way out and got some iron on patches, they stiffen up the pocket, help reduce clumping of the fabric, reduce wear-through, and help break up the shape of the gun. I havent found a pocket holster that doesnt raise the gun up to some degree. Mine tended to stay in place with a speedloader in the right lower part of the pocket, I only sometimes had the gun turn if I was in a crawlspace working in contorted movements, it seemed to behave for the most part in carhartt canvas work pants for the 8 or so years I carried the 640 daily.

For an accurate comparison you would need to use a P365 with OEM magazine base plate. As pictured and to be fair, your 642 would need to have Hogue or Pachmayr grips that allow a full grip.

[Latka Gravas]

It's because places start out good and then sarcastic foolery ensues.

It's a long video, but I agree with Darryl on just about every point.

The snubbie revolver has its place. Dudes with a clue, both old and young, know that. Whether we're talking about Darryl Bolke, Ed Lovette or Ed Calderon talking about his "Chatas."

The P365, and other "medium micro" semi's are also great little guns and have a place. A P365; however, cannot
- Fire multiple rounds through a jacket pocket.
- Fire more than one round simultaneously while pressed into an assailants skin.
- Be forgiving of a bad grip under stress
- Weigh less than 15 oz loaded (or at all for that matter)

People that carry a gun and hunt humans for a living tend not to discount the snub.

Proverbs 12:16

The things you say about the revolver aer very true. But we can't discount the revolvers shortcomings when determining what's best either. (Unless mandated by a policy, it is a very personal choice)

The 642 carries less than half the capacity of the P365.
Grabbing the cylinder of the 642, makes the gun inoperable (yes I know very well how to resolve this issue). Grabbing the slide of the P365, means I have at least one shot that can be immediately fired (yes I know how to resolve the issue after this too).

I read a lot about P365 not being reliable with a bad grip. I shot the P365 holding the gun with only my thumb and index finger of my right hand. I pulled the trigger with the index finger of my left hand. All 10 rounds fired and there was not a single malfunction. I repeated the process a second time and did not have a single malfunction.

Southnarc teaches extreme CQB. His technique makes a lot more sense to me than contacting the attackers skin with the muzzle when shooting. Touching an attackers skin with the muzzle would in my opinion be extreme CQB. So I chose 11 rounds fired in extreme CQB with my P365 over 5 rounds from my 642.

My Glock 43 deadlined my 642, the same way my P365 deadlined my G43.

I think it is safe to say each has its advantages and disadvantages

[KevH]

The things you say about the revolver aer very true. But we can't discount the revolvers shortcomings when determining what's best either. (Unless mandated by a policy, it is a very personal choice)

The 642 carries less than half the capacity of the P365.
Grabbing the cylinder of the 642, makes the gun inoperable (yes I know very well how to resolve this issue). Grabbing the slide of the P365, means I have at least one shot that can be immediately fired (yes I know how to resolve the issue after this too).

I read a lot about P365 not being reliable with a bad grip. I shot the P365 holding the gun with only my thumb and index finger of my right hand. I pulled the trigger with the index finger of my left hand. All 10 rounds fired and there was not a single malfunction. I repeated the process a second time and did not have a single malfunction.

Southnarc teaches extreme CQB. His technique makes a lot more sense to me than contacting the attackers skin with the muzzle when shooting. Touching an attackers skin with the muzzle would in my opinion be extreme CQB. So I chose 11 rounds fired in extreme CQB with my P365 over 5 rounds from my 642.

My Glock 43 deadlined my 642, the same way my P365 deadlined my G43.

I think it is safe to say each has its advantages and disadvantages

You're partially missing the point of what I said earlier in this thread.

You don't have to "deadline" anything. Different guns may serve different purposes.

Some situations we encounter in life call for a larger guns. Some call for a smaller gun. Be prepare to use and have both available depending on the situation you believe you will find yourself in. A very lightweight revolver is capable of filling some roles and going and doing some things a P365 cannot. There are also many situations where I can recognize I would be totally underarmed and at a supreme disadvantage carrying only that same lightweight revolver. Why place myself at that disadvantage?

If you truly believe the P365 works for you in every scenario you may encounter in life and you are comfortable and capable of engaging any type of threat with it then that's great. Many of us, myself included, choose to carry a larger gun when I can, but also recognize that if the smaller (and especially lighter) options weren't available in some scenarios life presents us that we would likely be unarmed. Having the options of truly small gun mitigates that.

For me that small and light option is usually a J-frame, but sometimes a 380 ACP, or both (depending on what I can get away with concealing).

[Glenn E. Meyer]

As a FOG civilian my take is:

1. As far as the old farts eating breakfast, there is a well known case were two geezers took out a shotgun wielding badguy in the restaurant with a 22 mag derringer and a NAA 22 mag. Just mentioned for grins as an anecdote is worth just what you paid for it.

2. I am of the school that the J frame is a viable and shootable gun if you put in the time. Thus, I took Claude Werner's class and shot a 642 quite a few times in IDPA and short range matches. Yes, reloading for multiple opponents is a drag but you can hit reasonably at these match distances without being terribly slow. You accept when you carry one that it is a 1.5 opponent gun. That's life and you play the odds. No handgun is getting you out of a mob with AK and ARs. Yep, we see geezers waving NAA Pugs and nonoperable trash guns and not getting killed as the mob wasn't interested in killing them. Although in one video, an AR guy was seen racking a round in.

3. What J - well, as some folks have mentioned in the past, my favorite is a 432 - a surprise extra round (hey, grandpa, you fired 5 , so I feel lucky. Oh, Bang!)

4. For belt and concealed in a 10 round state, haven't seen anything that would move me from my G26.

I hate the 5 is enough line when the promoter of the line denounces those who carry more as nuts. However, carrying 5 or 6 when you are aware of the limitations is viable as in the reviewed commentary. It isn't nuts either. As far as pocket, tiny 380s. Didn't like the LCPs. Got a G42 - not so sure I don't like the J for the way it carries a touch better.

Now I do have a NAA 22S mini revolver for a really tiny gun. Bought it for grins as a just because gun.

[Latka Gravas]

You're partially missing the point of what I said earlier in this thread.

You don't have to "deadline" anything. Different guns may serve different purposes.

Some situations we encounter in life call for a larger guns. Some call for a smaller gun. Be prepare to use and have both available depending on the situation you believe you will find yourself in. A very lightweight revolver is capable of filling some roles and going and doing some things a P365 cannot. There are also many situations where I can recognize I would be totally underarmed and at a supreme disadvantage carrying only that same lightweight revolver. Why place myself at that disadvantage?

If you truly believe the P365 works for you in every scenario you may encounter in life and you are comfortable and capable of engaging any type of threat with it then that's great. Many of us, myself included, choose to carry a larger gun when I can, but also recognize that if the smaller (and especially lighter) options weren't available in some scenarios life presents us that we would likely be unarmed. Having the options of truly small gun mitigates that.

For me that small and light option is usually a J-frame, but sometimes a 380 ACP, or both (depending on what I can get away with concealing).

You are quite right that I didn't have to deadline anything. I CHOSE to deadline guns that have been replaced bu guns that work far better (for me).

Much like Glenn posted, I too see the 642 gun as a 1.5 bad guy gun. That's why I carry at minimum the P365. This particular gun gives me 100%+ the capacity before having to reload. It is also much faster to reload and the gun is extremely easy to carry. I also shoot it extremely well.

These are just MY thoughts. I personally have no more use nor need for the J frame revolvers. I have more than one and I have no plan of getting rid of them, because I like them. I am just grateful to have the options available today.

[GearFondler]

Threads like this are probably why we don't see DB posting here anymore... One can only share their hard-earned knowledge so many times before becoming disgusted by the naysayers who have never been there and never done it yet claim to be smarter.

[FrankB]

I watched DB’s podcast, and very much respect what he had to say. However… not all of us are comfortable with shooting small j frames, or even a P365. Issues with ergonomics vary from person to person, as well as one’s comfort level with X number of rounds. Daryl said he carries a j frame around the house, but straps on a much larger pistol when he’s out and about. That’s reasonable. I’m down to 3 j frames, but they never get carried since I bought a 2.5” 686+ (and had a 4” converted to a 3”). Im 6’2” tall, and both are easily carried in a regular fitting pant pocket. The rear sight blade isn’t ideal, but it’s never been a problem. My first revolvers were 5 shot, and then a bought a Colt Detective Special. That sixth shot made me less confident in my j frames, so you can only imagine what having 7 shots in an L frame has done. There really isn’t a one size fits all answer here.

[Wonder9]

It's kind of funny that in the same post you mention "advanced minds" on PF and then immediately blow one of them off.

I spent 6 years in a busy Homicide/Robbery office. I've personally been involved with the investigation of somewhere north of 1k shootings as either a uniformed officer, assisting detective, or lead detective. I've yet to see anyone targeted for random violence dead with an empty j-frame in their hand. I find j-frames lose a lot of hypothetical gun fights online but very few in the real world in the context under discussion, which is "get out of trouble" vs "looking for trouble." Obviously if your personal threat level is higher (domestic violence situation, you're dealing dope in disputed territory, that sort of thing) then the criteria changes.

I find the notion that 5 shots won't break a crowd intent on pulling you from your car but 10 rounds will break them somewhat laughable.

The revolver is often recommended to non-dedicated users because the manual of arms is simpler and they are much more tolerant of neglect. A self-loading pistol that sits in a drawer unused for three years then is called into service is significantly more likely to malfunction than a revolver in the same situation. The typical recommendation is a k-frame for a drawer gun, but there's a reason folks like DB and I have independently arrived at the same conclusion on matters like that. Simply because that's what the real world has shown us vs what a bunch of hypotheticals assume.

Are you really suggesting double to triple the capacity is laughable? Because even with your background, I would say again it's a silly statement. A 10/12/15 round magazine exists for the P365 where you are not getting more than 5 rounds in the J-Frame or 6 if you rock a Colt D-frame. The non-dedicated user point is moot as the whole discussion revolves (pun slightly intended) around your average poster here runs a gauntlet of standard marksmanship drills for fun. We are speaking on on tiny guns and no credentials matter when the comparison is the height of 1950 tech vs 2018 tech.

Shooting through jacket? I'll concede that is much easier but I have seen a G43 shot through a jacket to slide lock.
Noobies? Not the type of people that we are discussing. We are discussing the influx of micro 9mms in comparison to micro .38s. Software solutions work in tandem with hardware solutions.
The possibility of jamming by pushing the slide against an attacker? Valid, but the trend of WML/Comps that prevent it is obvious looking through the forum.

The revolver crowd always pushes these selling points, but they always fail in the fact these are very specific circumstances which makes it a very niche firearm for niche situations. In the 95% of situations where people need a gun for concealed carry, there is no disadvantage to having more rounds that you may not need. There are major disadvantages for the revolver when compared to a Hi-Power from 1935, let alone modern tiny 9mms that hold as much ammunition as a service pistol. The rental P365 that hit 90K before breakage, and the severe lack of wheelguns in the 2K Challenge Thread is called a clue.

You do not need to be a SME to advocate the micro 9mms over the snubnose revolver. In fact, the gun world is so caught up on what you did in your professional life, people automatically think shooting someone is some deep warrior poet type crap. I've watched Travis Haley ND an AK, listened to PacMac say stupid crap about waiting periods, and Larry Vickers changing his tune to whoever is paying him at the moment. Total warrior badasses are not immune for putting their foot in their mouth or using their name to make money. Even James Yeager has more street cred than me, but that doesn't mean dick at the end of the day when discussion is about concealed carry guns instead of being on the wrong end of a PKM.

In closing, I used to know a little old lady that has a bodycount for shooting a thug with her late husband's old H&R .22 revolver. Doesn't mean her recommendation of .22LR for home defense is the best solution for the vast majority of situations.

[45dotACP]

For me at least, a J frame goes in the pocket far better than a G43. YMMV of course, but it seems as though any gun is often better than no gun in most situations.

I have other, more high capacity firearms on my person for trying to keep a crowd of rabid communists from pulling me from my vehicle. That said, I think there was a shooting in Chicago that was mentioned somewhere upthread as some sort of justification for why you need more rounds...but the failure of that situation was not one of capacity. The man who was pulled from the car and executed was found to have mistakenly shot his girlfriend in the neck with a .40 caliber pistol. And he didn't get many more shots than that one. So yes, if I'm getting pulled from my car, I'd probably meet the same fate with a J frame as I would with a G43 or a Sig 365.

There are other, more important things I think about before I consider capacity. Heretical though it may be.

Yes, certainly capacity means something, but in the realm of tiny guns that I keep in my pocket, I much prefer a longer, heavier trigger press. When I'm fishing in my pocket for a gun, who's to say whether my finger may or may not find itself in the trigger guard and also in my pocket, and there may be jostling of the gun between the pocket, the pocket holster, and my hand. I'd much prefer a J-frame with the 12lb DAO trigger than the P365 with a 4lb trigger.

One of the reasons I really like a the S&W Bodyguard revolver so much is that I can bring the gun out of my pocket at least partially with a thumb on the hammer. Yes, I have to clean a lot of lint out of the thing, but such is life. If you practice with your gun you'll need to clean it anyways.