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Thread: Let's talk about Gi vs. No-Gi

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by 45dotACP View Post
    Is the general consensus that it is almost always best to attack from some form of top pin or rear mount as opposed to an attack from guard?

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    "best" is subjective and contextual.

    Attacking from top or the back is going to be much higher percentage simply because 1) you have gravity generally on your side, and 2) you have more positional control over what the other guy is doing. These are superior positions because of that. Guard is at best 50/50 neutral (or, depending on who is doing what, it might be something like 52/48 on either side or similar) and as such means there is a greater chance of the other guy being able to stop what you are doing.

    But all of that is a general approach, and does not take into account the nuances of grappling. Someone can build a great guard game and be hugely successful with it - Roger Gracie, my professor, and Rudson Matteus come to immediate mind.

    And the mention of Marcelo Garcia is a great illustration of this contextual idea. He doe snot do a lot of work from guard, but there is a very specific reason for that. Take a look at his build sometime. For his size/weight class he has incredibly stubby legs. He will always have a problem using guard against someone his weight division or bigger, so he avoids it as much as possible. The attack that "made him" as someone to pay attention to in the BJJ world in the early 2000's was an armdrag to a backtake. He would hit that on everyone and was rarely forced to use guard. Contrast that with a Roger Gracie who with his longer than normal legs makes his guard work very practical.

    So don't think of it as either/or, but as something that may work for you or in a particular situation.
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  2. #22
    Member Sal Picante's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45dotACP View Post
    So who likes the Gi and who likes the No-gi?
    "Yes!"




    I usually just go to class - whatever class I can fit into my schedule...
    I find that I'm usually working on some concept or whatever... I try to just make that the singular focus in gi/no-gi, whatever...
    It's the concept that drives it, for me...

    I think Lemmy of Motörhead summed it up best when he said, "The pleasure is to play, makes no difference what you say..."

  3. #23
    I am a hardcore no gi guy, but I just wanted to stick my opinion in about the Judo that others mentioned in passing.

    Everyone interested in grappling in a "street" context will benefit from learning some basic Judo...and this requires either cross training at a Judo school or being fortunate enough to train with BJJ coaches who have a judo background...either way you will end up training in a gi.

    I will even suggest that basic judo throws are equally or more important than gi chokes.

    Also I recognise I opened a giant can of worms as what is a Judo vs BJJ technique....but I think we generally understand what each means in a contemporary context without delving into what Helio learned from who.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by smells like feet View Post
    I am a hardcore no gi guy, but I just wanted to stick my opinion in about the Judo that others mentioned in passing.

    Everyone interested in grappling in a "street" context will benefit from learning some basic Judo...and this requires either cross training at a Judo school or being fortunate enough to train with BJJ coaches who have a judo background...either way you will end up training in a gi.

    I will even suggest that basic judo throws are equally or more important than gi chokes.

    Also I recognise I opened a giant can of worms as what is a Judo vs BJJ technique....but I think we generally understand what each means in a contemporary context without delving into what Helio learned from who.
    It doesn't seem like a huge can of worms to me. Judo techniques are friggin awesome! Slamming someone on the pavement with an Uchi Mata or Harai Goshi is a sure way to end a fight.

    But then I kinda feel the same way about some Greco Roman wrestling moves... especially those really high amplitude suplex throws. Big oof.

    I've become a huge fan of the shoulder throw (seoi nage) and the firemen's carry (kata guruma) as well and those are seen in Wrestling, Judo, BJJ and Sambo. Seems like many effective martial arts are similar in appearance.

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  5. #25
    I studied Judo and Japanese Jiu Jitsu back in the day, as well as years of Karate', but I got away from it for decades. Six months ago, at age 68, I got back into martial arts with Muay Thai and BJJ. My opinion is purely subjective, though, as I am identifying as a complete beginner.

    I started with Nogi and then switched to Gi. Today I decided to go back to Nogi only, not for any philosophy of self defense, but because of the basic idea that I will learn the most from the variation I will do the most. And I don't like the Gi. I bought a decent one, the one the instructor recommended and it seems good quality. But I hate it. It is uncomfortable and hot. I feel like I am spending too much of the class keeping my Gi pants and belt tied. And I wore Gi's for many years, so I know how to do all that. I just forgot what a strange garment they are.

    Also, as a beginner, I find BJJ complicated enough with Nogi. I think it is more complicated with Gi. More details to remember or get wrong. That is all my humble opinion, but I'm stickin' with it.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    I feel like I am spending too much of the class keeping my Gi pants and belt tied.
    If you decide to try Gi again look at Origin's Gi pants. They fit a lot better than most and wear more like regular pants.

  7. #27
    Site Supporter Totem Polar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    I just forgot what a strange garment they are.
    The only reason we even still have Gis is because it would get real expensive, real quick replacing T-shirts and tac pants/sweats if we controlled, locked, choked and threw each other in street clothes 4 nights a week.
    ”But in the end all of these ideas just manufacture new criminals when the problem isn't a lack of criminals.” -JRB

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Totem Polar View Post
    The only reason we even still have Gis is because it would get real expensive, real quick replacing T-shirts and tac pants/sweats if we controlled, locked, choked and threw each other in street clothes 4 nights a week.
    LOL. So the theory is gi's are needed so we can practice techniques that involve grabbing gi's. That could be seen as a problem being created by a solution. In nogi, and in most wrestling styles, grabbing clothing is not allowed. So the techniques have to work no matter what the opponent might be wearing. I do think gi training is very useful, but I also notice it seems to spawn techniques that will only work on an opponent with an actual gi, not just street clothes. Those techniques work in competition, but that is not my interest.

  9. #29
    Site Supporter Totem Polar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    LOL. So the theory is gi's are needed so we can practice techniques that involve grabbing gi's. That could be seen as a problem being created by a solution. In nogi, and in most wrestling styles, grabbing clothing is not allowed. So the techniques have to work no matter what the opponent might be wearing. I do think gi training is very useful, but I also notice it seems to spawn techniques that will only work on an opponent with an actual gi, not just street clothes. Those techniques work in competition, but that is not my interest.
    @Cecil Burch has written on this topic at reasonable length. He absolutely convinced on the value of Gi vs no-gi for real world defense. I see the gi as a durable substitute for the sweatshirts, jean jackets and leather coats that we all wear in the PNW. As I am typing this, I’m in a coffeeshop, and I don’t see anyone not wearing something that could be used to cross-collar choke them (Stop! Creeper time…). That said, I have the least competition mindset of any BJJ player around. I practice no gi because I enjoy it more, and I injure myself less. Plus, it’s still better than “crane beak hand and a sharp word,” if that makes sense. I’m with you all the way on the universality of no-gi, if not the sophistication.

    Seriously though, I will absolutely defer to Cecil’s expertise on this one. The debate is pretty much right in his wheelhouse.

    I still like no-gi though.
    ”But in the end all of these ideas just manufacture new criminals when the problem isn't a lack of criminals.” -JRB

  10. #30
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    I've been doing a lot more Gi lately when I wind up going to open mats at a nearby gym. The lapel games are still not my cuppa tea, but I use a shitload of cross collar and Bow and Arrow chokes alongside collar/sleeve control.


    When I roll with the black belts, the cross collar choke comes on really damn fast.

    I don't see those being ineffective in a sweatshirt/jacket.

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