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Thread: Let's talk about Gi vs. No-Gi

  1. #1
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    Let's talk about Gi vs. No-Gi

    I'm interested to hear the discussion surrounding the value of Gi training for self defense compared to the value of No-Gi training for self defense. Keep in mind this is in the context of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, but it can apply to other martial arts that use the Gi like Sambo or other martial arts that do not use the Gi like wrestling. It's more of a grappling discussion, so it's leaving out the obvious combinations like Mixed Martial Arts contests, Pankration and Combat Sambo.

    My take: A skilled player of a grappling based combat sport possesses the defensive skillset necessary to emerge victorious regardless of whether they are a gi or no-gi specialist. I feel the distinction is overblown and can be overcome with a very small amount of training required for adjustment.

    Case in point: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Gi player extraordinaire and overall nerd Mikey Musimeci just won a high level No-gi match with a #1 ranked No-gi player and 10th planet (a no-gi school) phenom Geo Martinez. Yes it was a points victory, but it was decisive, with Musimeci putting on a clinic on Martinez, who as a 10th planet black belt, has trained a very small amount of Gi, compared to Mikey, who has a highlight reel in the Gi, but relatively fewer highlights in the no-gi.

    If you're in a colder climate, of course, the winter time will favor your Gi style techniques...especially if your school emphasizes high amplitude Judo type takedowns. But I gotta think a strong cross collar choke can still be made to work. But then the average no-gi guy probably at least considers training for the ADCC ruleset, which emphasizes submission attempts in the first five minutes of the match (which have no points) then when points kick in later in the match, the guys with strong wrestling or counter wrestling skills will see more success, as things like guard pulling are penalized. And I think wrestling is possibly one of the greatest martial arts for self defense because it emphasizes holding a position of control for a long time, which can be useful for if you are waiting for the police to arrive. You just tie the dude up, take him down, hold him down, sprawl him out and wait for the cops.

    Of course, I believe these need to be supported by a sense of weapons retention (if you're armed) and solid striking skills either way, but I feel like those things don't need to be exceptionally complex. Just well thought out.

    So who likes the Gi and who likes the No-gi? Any particular reasoning for it? My school trains both (as well as striking classes) but I find I actually like No-gi a little more, reason being I'm not very good at leg locks, and it makes me focus more on wrestling, top position and hunting for strangles. I don't mind Gi, though. I just don't play that lapel guard stuff.

  2. #2
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    In my opinion it doesn’t matter for self defense. I just finished Cecil’s class this past weekend. He taught us and then let us drill a couple different chokes using T-shirts. I wore an under armor dryfit style tshirt and gym shorts the entire weekend. Other guys wore regular street clothes. Others no Gi gear. It just didn’t matter.

    I’ve already asked my instructor if I can start wearing street clothes and a blue gun on no Gi nights.

    I personally don’t like wearing a Gi but I still train both. If I want to move up belts I have to wear a Gi part of the time. But I don’t think it really matters. I think one thing the Gi does do is tighten up my movement. That extra friction points out my inefficiencies pretty quickly.
    “If you know the way broadly you will see it in everything." - Miyamoto Musashi

  3. #3
    I think the correct answer to this is to train both, but if I had to choose one for self defense I’d recommend training in the gi. Reason being it makes grip breaking and pin escapes more difficult, and forces you to protect your neck more because there’s a big rope around it constantly. I think there’s other Jiu Jitsu specific training benefits to spending some time in the gi, but strictly looking at self defense I think those are the biggest benefits that are a little more present in the gi.

    I like both though and find myself training about 50/50. Long term I could see no gi becoming more popular in the US. It’s more spectator friendly and that’s where the money is.

  4. #4
    I got my blue belt fairly recently. Up to that point my mat hours were about 50/50 for Gi and no-gi. If I could, I would train only no gi at this point. People can definitely become dependent on the gi. Due to my schedule and starting Muay Thai, I am only able to attend gi class right now. That being said, I can still use all the same grips and subs from no gi in the gi. I am betting Mikey put in the work and probably put in a huge amount of high level no gi mat hours in a short amount of time. There is a lot of cross over. There is an element of self directed training and focus in BJJ. I made sure to learn takedowns and head lock escapes. Pretty much all the good head lock escapes lol.

  5. #5
    And old post that @Cecil Burch had written on TPI when I had expressed interest in no-gi for a more realistic self-defense training experience:

    [/quote]

    Man, I sometimes forget how much stuff we worked out on TPI. Those were good times when we were the Outlaws - the Waylons, the Willies, the Coes, - to the standard Nashville style gun world. Thanks for bringing that back dude.
    Last edited by Cecil Burch; 07-21-2021 at 11:11 AM.

  6. #6
    Here is something I wrote a bit more recently than the above TPI post. My thinking evolved a bit, but I think this is a balanced and informed take.


    "It is not a secret to many people that know me that I am not a huge fan of no-gi training, especially in a self-defense context.

    Mostly my opposition to it revolves around a couple of things.

    Unless we are anticipating fighting a greased up naked dude, there is a very good chance we will have handles of some kind that we can use to improve our chance of survival. This is not to say that those handles will always be the exact equivalent of gis, but more than likely they will be something that can be used in a similar fashion. Just having the knowledge and capability of controlling the sleeves/arms of the other guy and tying him up in a way that makes it hard for him to do something violent and offensive towards you may well be the single greatest technique to use in an entangled fight. I regularly teach, and have taught for more than 14 years, the ability for someone to use the choking strategies of BJJ and apply them to something as simple as a t-shirt. To this day, even against someone resisting violently, I have yet to have a t-shirt rip and render the choke impossible. With all that, it just makes sense that if we are truly focused on self-defense that spending the majority of our training time in the gi is a good thing.

    No-gi, as even its most vociferous proponents will agree, is a young man’s game. It relies on strength, speed, aggression, mobility, cardiovascular conditioning, etc. to be consistently successful. A heavy reliance which is great if you have those things but not so awesome if you don’t, and, let’s face it, it is far more likely to be true for those of us in the real world and just everyday people and not professional athletes in their physical prime. We cannot rely on those things to pull us through. In fact, we need to start with the premise that all of our opponents will be bigger, stronger, tougher, faster, meaner, more aggressive, less injured, have the initiative, and any other attribute we can think of. That needs to be our philosophical starting point.

    Does that mean I am dead set against no-gi, or that I believe that is has no value at all for self-defense? I am in no way saying that. I think there are some spots that no-gi training shines, and while those spots may be less important or less necessary, does not meant they should be ignored.

    Where no-gi shines is:

    You must actively and continuously be trying to control the other guy’s arms. Because there is no way to grab and lock down and just hold them, no-gi forces you into a very aggressive and constant attempt to secure as much control over the arms as possible. And if that control only lasts a moment, then you have to go right back to retrieving it. This is a great benefit in a self-preservation context because we must make sure that the other person cannot freely strike us or have free reign to deploy a weapon into the fight. Gi work gives you a better idea of how to control. And no-gi gets you used to fighting for it all the time.

    It is difficult and somewhat low percentage to fight from the bottom in no-gi. Even a great guard player is extremely restricted in his ability to attack, so the better strategy is to fight from the top or have back control. So in no-gi, you have to put a premium on constantly working to drive your hips over and to come up and be upright. And of course this may very well be the single best tactical plan if we are fighting for our lives in the street.

    Even though I dislike no-gi, I do think that not only does it offer some value for self-defense, but it also is just good practice to work it on its own anyway. I follow Stephen Kesting’s dictum that BJJ training should be 80/20. 80% of the time do your preferred type or work, and 20% do the other, regardless of personal taste or preference."


    http://www.iacombatives.com/2019/05/...-self-defense/
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  7. #7
    Also, I often hesitate to post things like what I wrote above because it tends to kill discussion. I think because the attitude is "if the 'SME' says something, that is final." NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH.

    Just because myself, or Craig, or Paul writes something, that does NOT mean that no one else can contribute. Even if what you contribute goes against what we say, that is no reason to stay quiet. We are infallible. The only thing we are trying to do is give the benefit of our experience and knowledge. We still have stuff to learn.

    So please, just because I wrote the above blog post, please don't refrain from the conversation.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cecil Burch View Post
    Also, I often hesitate to post things like what I wrote above because it tends to kill discussion. I think because the attitude is "if the 'SME' says something, that is final." NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH.
    .
    Invitation accepted. I was actually a bit apprehensive about sharing my thoughts so here goes:

    I've used force an appropriate amount in my 23 (and counting) years of LE. I was a Junior Yellow Belt in Judo, went through "Line Training" in the Military and standard police academy training that at that time was heavy on Akido. With that "amount" of experience I drug people to the ground, did 1 very nice Judo throw, some wrist locks, elbow locks, arm bar takedowns (Akido) to varying degrees of success. Sometimes it literally boiled down to taking the initiative and being more aggressive.

    In about 2006 I put in about 9 months of BJJ training and even competed in a No Gi Tournament. Our school was about 70% No-Gi. I was a 2 stripe white belt. From that point I again used an appropriate amount of force in my job - and I used the skills I learned in BJJ. Years later I would still use (successfully) techniques I learned 10+ years prior.

    I resumed training in BJJ one year ago and am now a Blue Belt. Only Fridays are No-Gi.

    My observations and opinions are based on my experience and my training. And so when it comes to No-Gi vs. Gi I believe: It doesn't matter. For example I once did a standing anaconda "hold" on a complexly naked person. I held them vs. choked them. A technique I had never even attempted before.

    Most people I encountered were wearing clothes. Some were not.

    Ultimately it was the "BJJ Training" that prevailed. There was no thought like, crap they don't have a GI on what do I do - or crap they are wearing a thick coat and I don't know how to grip it. It was just, do.
    A71593

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by nwhpfan View Post
    For example I once did a standing anaconda "hold" on a complexly naked person. I held them vs. choked them. A technique I had never even attempted before.
    Was it a one or two handed grip? Sorry couldn’t resist :-D

  10. #10
    It depends. It's way easier to lock me down in a gi than in no gi because I'm still quick and strong and can scramble. So personally if I want to really tune up my escapes then I work in gi

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