Federal .38 Special "Train and Protect" LSWC-HP

[revchuck38]

What are your thoughts on a 170 grain powder coated LSWC-HP loaded warm?

I know an older gentleman who casts and PCs amazing bullets. I was considering paying him to cast me up a big batch if there was enough of a market for such things. I set back a bit of Starline brass for such a project, but I just haven't decided on a direction.

A +P defense type .38 might be the way to go, if the demand is there.

I like the idea, but I've read and bought into @Mas's thoughts on the use of non-factory loads for self defense. And I've already got a couple hundred rounds of 170-grain LSWCs loaded to .38-44 specs.

[03RN]

Have you tried any of those in magnum cases?

Id like to see it at 1200fps

[Lost River]

Have you tried any of those in magnum cases?

I have not done any real testing of that bullet in .357s.

I have a supply of new .38 Special Starline brass, and FAR more people shoot and buy .38s than they do .357s by a very wide margin.

I would do up some .357s but acquiring new .357 brass right now is like trying to find a reasonable redheaded woman at an ANTIFA meeting.

[Lost River]

I like the idea, but I've read and bought into @Mas's thoughts on the use of non-factory loads for self defense. And I've already got a couple hundred rounds of 170-grain LSWCs loaded to .38-44 specs.

Fortunately I am actually a licensed manufacturer. I just do small scale stuff currently. Eventually (if the people I paid a stupid amount of money to will get it done) I will have a website, but right now the locals keep me busy.

Its an odd business though, trying to gauge what people want. What they say they do, and then what they will actually buy are often two very different things. 95% of the shooting public will load virtually anything that goes bang into their guns, even for defense purposes.

I made up a batch of 9mm that was meant as a bear/outdoors defense load, that would also be great for use against vehicles, back when we were having all the riots last summer. It used a Rim Rock 147 grain hard cast Flat Nose at around 1100 FPS. Exact same bullet that Buffalo Bore uses in their +P 9mm OUTDOORSMAN load, and same velocity range.

The locals, even sportsmen going into the mountains, just wanted the cheapest FMJ or poly coated lead they could get. I even explained that the hard cast @ 1,100 was a better choice and a fraction of the cost over BB. Nope, they wanted walmart style ammo.

Figured out right there that I would probably concentrate on mostly revolver ammo, as the 9mm specialty stuff was a bit pointless for 95% of the market. Plus when the big outfits get caught up, you can't compete with the production capabilities, and what they pay for components (plus they make the primers) so making wadcutter .38s, .44s, specialty .45 ACP, etc and other specialty (fun) stuff is a better way to go anyways.

[Hambo]

I would do up some .357s but acquiring new .357 brass right now is like trying to find a reasonable redheaded woman at an ANTIFA meeting.

Well, you've got me looking for .38 Short Colt brass

[Outpost75]

I wasn't aware they had different claimed MVs on the new load vs the old one, that's interesting. Regardless, my dude at Federal says that the projectile is the same as the old one. I stand corrected on the velocity, although I'd be willing to bet that the new stuff chronos hotter than 830 FPS.

If the load is standard pressure, rather than +P, more than 830 fps is highly unlikely from the 4-inch vested test barrel or an actual service revolver. From a 1-7/8" S&W J-frame typical of current production it might make 700. From a 3" S&W Model 13 maybe 800 if the cylinder gap is at Mean Assembly Tolerance, not over 0.006", but most of the ammunition factories quit using the 4-inch vented test barrel by the year 2000, because nobody was ordering contract quantities of revolver ammo which required its use.

For normal commercial production most manufacturers went back to the older, easier to use, solid test barrel which produces that higher (unrealistic compared to a revolver) velocity number which the marketing guys love to hype. I expect THAT is where your 830 fps number comes from. I eagerly anticipate chronograph data with measured barrel lengths and cylinder gaps, firing in both 2-inch and 4-inch barrels, comparing this load side-by-side on the same day against established standards of factory ammo, such as the Winchester X38SPD 158-grain lead HP+P, and on the low-end, anybody's big-3 US brand 148-grain midrange target wadcutter.

[Lost River]

Well, you've got me looking for .38 Short Colt brass

The Short Colt stuff has been really fun!

If the general shooting public were more aware of it, I have no doubt it would be substantially more popular.

Those little 9mm length cartridges and J Frames are like PB&J! They put a smile on your face.

[Lost River]

If the load is standard pressure, rather than +P, more than 830 fps is highly unlikely from the 4-inch vested test barrel or an actual service revolver. From a 1-7/8" S&W J-frame typical of current production it might make 700. From a 3" S&W Model 13 maybe 800 if the cylinder gap is at Mean Assembly Tolerance, not over 0.006", but most of the ammunition factories quit using the 4-inch vented test barrel by the year 2000, because nobody was ordering contract quantities of revolver ammo which required its use.

For normal commercial production most manufacturers went back to the older, easier to use, solid test barrel which produces that higher (unrealistic compared to a revolver) velocity number which the marketing guys love to hype. I expect THAT is where your 830 fps number comes from. I eagerly anticipate chronograph data with measured barrel lengths and cylinder gaps, firing in both 2-inch and 4-inch barrels, comparing this load side-by-side on the same day against established standards of factory ammo, such as the Winchester X38SPD 158-grain lead HP+P, and on the low-end, anybody's big-3 US brand 148-grain midrange target wadcutter.

This absolutely matches my experience.

Data from factories I found out was obtained using a 7" unvented test barrel. Compared to shooting in an actual revolver, using various barrel lengths, the factory listed velocities were grossly overstated. In fact on one powder manufacturers website, their data, versus actual field data, confirmed using two chronos ( that averaged within 6 FPS of each other over 20 shots), showed the factory data to be overestimated by almost 300 fps when using 125 grain lead truncated cone .38s. If I recall right it was around 285-290 FPS average.

Pretty dang far from what they said that their load would produce, to say the least.

[Outpost75]

Velocity data from 2-inch and 4" service revolvers, both having been selected as having 0.005" cylinder gap:

.38 Special chronograph data, S&W Model 15, 4” REVOLVER, 0.005” cylinder gap 6-22-93.

Federal 125 Nyclad HP___________852 fps, 25 Sd
Remington 148 HBWC___________747 fps, 6 Sd
Winchester 148 HBWC___________742 fps, 13 Sd
WCC87 Ball M41 130-gr. FMJ_____748 fps, 21 Sd
Winch.Q4070 110-gr. JHP +P+ LE_1062 fps, 39 Sd
Winch. X38SPD 158-gr. LHP +P___920 fps 21 Sd
Winchester Q4196 158-gr. LRN____793 fps, 10 Sd
Federal 158 LRN 38A____________808 fps, 16 Sd
Federal 158 LHP+L 38G__________ 883 fps, 16 Sd
Fed. HydaShok 147-gr. JHP +P+LE_ 965 fps, 33 Sd

.38 Special chronograph data, Colt Detective Special 2” REVOLVER, 0.005” cylinder gap 6-22-93

Federal 125-gr. Nyclad SWCHP_____772 fps, 33 Sd
Fed. HydraShok 147-gr. JHP+P+LE__920 fps, 6 Sd
Remington 148-gr. HBWC_________702 fps, 12 Sd
Winchester 110-gr. Silvertip HP_____864 fps, 28 Sd
Winchester 125-gr. Silvertip +P_____827 fps, 10 Sd
Winchester 148-gr. HBWC_________ 697 fps, 18 Sd
Winchester Q4196 158-gr. LRN_____ 728 fps, 24 Sd
Winchester X38SPD 158-gr. LHP +P__831 fps, 10 Sd
WCC87 Ball M41 130-gr. FMJ________718 fps, 31 Sd

[Chuck Whitlock]

Fortunately I am actually a licensed manufacturer. I just do small scale stuff currently. Eventually (if the people I paid a stupid amount of money to will get it done) I will have a website, but right now the locals keep me busy.

Its an odd business though, trying to gauge what people want. What they say they do, and then what they will actually buy are often two very different things. 95% of the shooting public will load virtually anything that goes bang into their guns, even for defense purposes.

I made up a batch of 9mm that was meant as a bear/outdoors defense load, that would also be great for use against vehicles, back when we were having all the riots last summer. It used a Rim Rock 147 grain hard cast Flat Nose at around 1100 FPS. Exact same bullet that Buffalo Bore uses in their +P 9mm OUTDOORSMAN load, and same velocity range.

The locals, even sportsmen going into the mountains, just wanted the cheapest FMJ or poly coated lead they could get. I even explained that the hard cast @ 1,100 was a better choice and a fraction of the cost over BB. Nope, they wanted walmart style ammo.

Figured out right there that I would probably concentrate on mostly revolver ammo, as the 9mm specialty stuff was a bit pointless for 95% of the market. Plus when the big outfits get caught up, you can't compete with the production capabilities, and what they pay for components (plus they make the primers) so making wadcutter .38s, .44s, specialty .45 ACP, etc and other specialty (fun) stuff is a better way to go anyways.

I, for one, hope that when you are ready to ship out product, that you'll post something up here on PF.