The only argument for smaller dots (1 MOA) is some users with astigmatism report it gives them a cleaner dot.Originally Posted by Erick Gelhaus
The only argument for smaller dots (1 MOA) is some users with astigmatism report it gives them a cleaner dot.
I was hoping to hear from the OP. I've got two, yes two, astigmatisms ... I see the 3.25 dot fine. Now, T1s/T2s are a wee bit different story.
I used a Tasco Optima 2000 back around 2001 and never noticed an issue with the dot. As I got older I noticed my vision at night deteriorated to the point I ended up needing glasses while working early mornings in order to see license plates at anything beyond bumper distances. My daytime vision took longer to suck. While I’m certainly not blind, my vision is nowhere near what it was 20 years ago. To describe it, it seems my uncorrected focus is about at the front sight.
This worked great for me for years. When people say “focus on your front sight” it was almost impossible for me not to. Even staring at the target (which made the pistol/sights do that transparent thing) the sights were still crisp. I usually shot irons with a target focus because it really didn’t matter to me.
With the dot and my current uncorrected vision the target is blurry and the dot is blurry. When I picked up my first RM02 back in 2017 I thought it was defective - until I put on my glasses... and I was immediately jealous of people with non-defective eyeballs.
I currently have all three RMR dot sizes (1.0, 3.25, and 6.5) two SRO sizes (1.0 and 2.5 - and we tested the 5.0 with a lot of rounds down range), two 2.5moa DeltaPoint Pros, several 2MOA Holosun, some that I run circle-only with, an 8MOA ring Holosun 407CO, an original ACRO P-1 and a P-2 that a buddy is running right now.
Of all of them, my absolute favorite is the 1.0MOA. The reason it’s my favorite is because corrected it’s a nice dot that, when bright, works great for fast stuff and covers less of the target... which for me isn’t a precision thing - it’s a vision and attention thing. I corrected it’s a smaller blur and is less “annoying” than bigger dots.
Speaking of which - I can get away with almost any size reticle as “acceptable” to me in bright daylight conditions as they all appear fairly clear. Things start to change and the various reticle blur and distort to varying degrees as soon as light drops to indoor conditions or lower.
Here’s some of my other thoughts regarding the different reticles:
I don’t like the Holosun circle-dot because it’s too busy, blocks too much of the target, and with uncorrected vision in anything but bright light is a HUGE blur.
I absolutely love the 407CO 8moa ring with corrected vision or bright daylight uncorrected. It’s horrible uncorrected in other light.
I like the Holosun 2moa dot better than the Leupold 2moa dot. It’s clearer to me and less distorted in low light uncorrected. Don’t know why.
Two dots from different samples of the same optic (ie: 6.5moa RMRs) can look totally different, and it seems to me that there’s more variation in the bigger dot’s than the smaller dots.
I like the Holosun “circle-only” 32moa ring. I haven’t done a ton of shooting with it compared to dot reticles, but it facilitates/encourages a target-focus better than a dot, is plenty accurate for about anything I’d do with an optic, is distinct enough even uncorrected in lower light, and minimizes the potential of false dots due to glare confusing the user. The only reason I haven’t shot it more is that most of my optics use dots and that’s my tactical safe space... creature of habit and all...
Of the 3-3.5moa optics, the ACRO has the clearest dot for me. If there were options for smaller (1.0 or 2.0moa) dots I’d certainly want to try them and would likely prefer them for me over the current size. That said, given the advantages of the ACRO in other ways, it’s the optic on the G19MOS I carry every day.
In summary (TL/DR... I get it), all the descriptive words I used (horrible, huge, blur, clear, distinct, etc.) are what I perceive and prefer (or don’t). All of you are not me and therefore everything I’ve said above may not apply. I can’t stand when some “expert” says “you should use ______ dot size (or type)” or that “____ dot is better than ___ dot” for whatever purpose like speed or precision. A 6.5moa dot is pretty damn precise. A 1.0moa dot is plenty fast. It’s individual eyeballs and perceptions and applications (competition in a controlled environment, carry, home-defense, etc.) that should be considered when making a choice.
Last edited by SoCalDep; 10-09-2021 at 10:54 AM.
Totally this.
I have 20/30 vision in both eyes and also have an astigmatism. All dots to me look like two dots with one slightly higher and to the left (they touch forming an "8" I suppose). Corrected (wearing glasses) it's much less offensive, but since I tend not to wear glasses most of the time I've learned to live with it. I first noticed this using Aimpoints and (at the time) Bushnell Holosights (EOTechs) about twenty years ago.
I've taken RDO's to the optometrist with me. There is no way to correct it to a 100% perfect dot for me. There will always be some level of distortion.
Different dots to me look better or worse by individual optic and are dependent upon lighting condition. I have a 6moa RM07 I love since it works well for me in bright daylight, in dusk settings and also in the dark with white light. I also really like most of the 2moa only Holosun dots. My 2.5moa DPP is pretty bad in dim lighting, but still useable. YMMV...
I've learned to sight in with corrected vision as precisely as I can at 25 yards using cut up 1" x 1" pieces of 3x5 cards from a bench. Once that's done, shooting uncorrected at most distances no matter how distorted the dot is doesn't seem to matter as I'm target focused. It works for me, but may or may not work for anyone else.
I've also noticed I cannot simply pick up someone else's pistol with an optic and shoot it well nor can they necessarily pick up mine. I first noticed this about six years ago. A good friend was shooting a plate rack with great consistency at the 25 yard like with an RM06 mounted on a Glock 34. He handed me the gun and I couldn't hit a single plate. All shots were landing inches off to the right. I used his irons on the gun and did just fine. I've experimented with this quite a bit. Unlike iron sights which seem to be universal with a pistol, what is zero'ed for you with an electronic dot may not be for me and vice versa. I think it's probably astigmatism related, but eye/optic interaction is not universal. We all see and perceive the dot and it's location differently (kind of like a Rorschach test).
So when it comes to dot size and recommending a reticle or optic I think it's highly subjective comes down to individual eye characteristics and preference.
It seems SoCalDep above might have similar reasons to myself regarding astigmatism and liking smaller dots?
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Good question. I should have stated some reasons. It's more for perceived versatility than me thinking I would be somehow "outshooting" a 3.25MOA dot P-2. I generally go with the flow as a 9mm glock CCW kind of person. I neither have the money or time to experiment much (in the form of buying a lot of different optics) and go beyond the typical go-to recipes for combative arms. A 2MOA P-2 seems then like a mini T-2. If someone has a good case study for dots being bigger than 2MOA being the recommended go-to for pistols, I would genuinely like to see it. I think Aaron Cowan is one who's already shifted to a 1MOA dot on his primary carry pistol optic.
Are dots bigger than 2MOA on pistols from a basis of data, marketing, consumer popularity or a fourth variable/mixture thereof? 2MOA seems to be favored here as well: https://www.aimpoint.com/products/red-dot-sights
I would say my main concern is more for versatility regarding the idea of having an ACRO P-2 float from pistols, to carbines/shotguns. Hence my "poor" hashtag. (I don't see many people running single dot 3.25MOA dots on their carbines 2015-2021). If the T2 is 2MOA for it's current standard, why not a 2MOA P-2?
With the battery compartment on the side, and now with improved battery life and more common CR2032 in use I keep going back to the idea that should I want a brighter dot, I can bump up the brightness a bit.
But for $500 I not only received an RMR, but I received a free astigmatism diagnosis too. If I could peer behind a 3.25MOA P-2 and it wouldn't starfish like my 1MOA RMR, then sign me up! Hell, my 1MOA RMR is probably bigger than a 3.25MOA dot with my screwy defective eyeballs.
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Last edited by SLUZENE; 10-10-2021 at 01:31 AM.
Correction: With the battery compartment on the side, and now with improved battery life and more common CR2032 in use I keep going back to the idea that should I want a BIGGER dot, I can bump up the brightness a bit.
We are rapidly running out of October.
3/15/2016
It’s likely based off what works best in USPSA Open and CO divisions. There’s definitely a strong preference for bigger dots amongst nearly all USPSA dot shooters. Personally, I think bigger dots are easier to pick up at a brightness that doesn’t distract from staying target focused. Just turning up the brightness tends to distract me from full “dot zen mode” where I just perceive the dot and the target spot.
I emailed Strohman's and was told " Unfortunately, we have no news. Potential talks of beginning of 2022 end of 2021. Major bummer, I am sorry! If you need a refund please let me know."
I'm just going to hang out on the waitlist as the gun is already cut and I am in no major rush to get it. Oh Aimpoint...
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