Considering that Fauci changed his mind quite a few times, knowingly or not, this is very... progressiveOriginally Posted by ccmdfd
Considering that Fauci changed his mind quite a few times, knowingly or not, this is very... progressive
Last edited by cheby; 09-09-2021 at 09:15 PM.
Those studies are ongoing. As far as I know, the risks of the vaccine to children remain unknown. I could simply be uninformed though.
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Mass booster vaccines unnecessary as immunity ‘lasting well’, says Oxford jab professor
Professor Dame Sarah Gilbert has previously highlighted the wide disparity in vaccination rates between different countries, suggesting jabs should be sent to those areas where availability is low to vaccinate everybody once, rather than some people three times.
She told the Telegraph: “We need to get vaccines to countries where few of the population have been vaccinated so far.
We have to do better in this regard. The first dose has the most impact.”
https://www.itv.com/news/2021-09-10/...-oxford-expert
From a global strategy standpoint, as the virus spreads between people, it mutates and adapts and evolves, causing endless trouble and new infection waves.
It makes sense to stop wide dispread of new variants as quickly as possible, and to inmunize as many people as possible worldwide to minimize breeding grounds.
The immunocompromised and elderly should receive boosters.
So Anybody? Is this guy spouting nonsense or is he correct. Hes basically saying the covid vaccine overwhelms the bodies natural immunization process. Making it focus on looking for the spike associated with covid and actually stops the bodies natural response to other illnesses. Hes also saying the vaccination is whats driving the variants becoming more powerful than the preceding variant.
Heres his CV. https://37b32f5a-6ed9-4d6d-b3e1-5ec6...502752684f.pdf
I'll wager you a PF dollar™ 😎
The lunatics are running the asylum
I'm totally unqualified to assess the Van Den Bossche guy's claims about what the vaccine would do to the immune system but here are my two thoughts:
1) wouldn't we be seeing really poor resistance to variants in vaccinated people if this were true? To me it seems like the opposite is happening: people who are vaccinated still get infected, just with fewer symptoms, and afterwards their immunity is REALLY broad. That was the impression I got from some of the informed people in this thread, at least, although there has been so much information at this point I don't feel perfectly confident that I have summarized it correctly. But I thought post-delta, vaccinated people had a really strong immune response, like stronger than pre-delta, vaccinated people. Hoping @pangloss might clarify this.
2) at least in theory I think it would be credible to suggest that any measure which stops the virus from replicating would be selection pressure...but:
A) are the variants we're seeing, being selected to not have the spike protein? Or to have a different spike protein? If the mRNA vaccines target the spike protein and the variants have the same protein then intuitively I would say well, they can't have been a response to that particular selection pressure. I get the argument that a very narrowly targeted vaccine is the equivalent of standing at the Maginot line (preferably at an appropriate moment in history) and shooting everyone in a German helmet, and it stops working when they change their hats...but have they changed their hats? Or have they changed their boots? If it's not the hats, then...it's not my shooting that did the selection. Maybe @RevolverRob has thoughts on my hamfisted analogy of selection pressure, though.
B) can this virus exist and remain harmful without the spike protein? Again I am not a highly qualified scientist, I am a lowly qualified amateur boat builder. But that would be my question there; I thought the spike protein was a necessary feature to get the virus to stick to you, and while maybe in theory it could evolve a different mechanism to accomplish this, that in general coronaviruses rely on that spike, and that's what gives them that "crown" shape that got them their name. If I have understood that correctly, it seems like an evolution that really makes it evade the mRNA spike protein recognition system your body developed, would also make it a much less functional virus.
Completely admit I have no idea if it's possible for the spike protein to very slightly change, and still work the same way, but no longer trigger the immune system as trained by the vaccine. But I would have guessed (again from the perspective of someone who gets paid to either write stuff or draw telecom systems in autocad and then explain to my boss why a contractor hasn't finished buiding it yet - I have zero serious knowlege of proteins, vaccines, or immunity) that if this were true...instead of seeing vaccinated people get the virus without getting very sick, we'd see vaccinated people get the virus and get just as sick, because the vaccine wouldn't be getting their immune response rolling.
I don't think I can be any clearer that I am not qualified to assess this, but on a purely intuitive level I get the concept, but don't think it explains what we're seeing.
This is a thread where I built a boat I designed and which I very occasionally update with accounts of using it, which is really fun as long as I'm not driving over logs and blowing up the outboard.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ilding-a-skiff
The hypothesis is that vaccination creates an evolutionary pressure on the virus to morph and overcome vaccine-enabled immunity?
All the variants that have spread widely so far, which originated in places where vax rates were not super high.
The worst variants dealt with on a wide scale so far have been the South African Beta variant and the Indian Delta variant, both of which do a better job evading vaccines that performed better against the Alpha variant. They are a good bit more infectious, AFAIK have changes in the spike protein, and evolved in places with very low rates of vaccination.
At the very least, it appears clear that vaccines or no vaccines, the virus can and will naturally mutate, and can and will at times naturally mutate into more infectious/deadly variants.
Gaming will get you killed in the streets. Dueling will get you killed in the fields.
-Alexander Hamilton
I’ll just leave this snippet from a Sept 7 NYT article here, to take for what it’s worth.
In recent weeks, however, more data has become available, and it suggests that the true picture is less alarming. Yes, Delta has increased the chances of getting Covid for almost everyone. But if you’re vaccinated, a Covid infection is still uncommon, and those high viral loads are not as worrisome as they initially sounded.
How small are the chances of the average vaccinated American contracting Covid? Probably about one in 5,000 per day, and even lower for people who take precautions or live in a highly vaccinated community.
Or maybe one in 10,000
The estimates here are based on statistics from three places that have reported detailed data on Covid infections by vaccination status: Utah; Virginia; and King County, which includes Seattle, in Washington state. All three are consistent with the idea that about one in 5,000 vaccinated Americans have tested positive for Covid each day in recent weeks.
The chances are surely higher in the places with the worst Covid outbreaks, like the Southeast. And in places with many fewer cases — like the Northeast, as well as the Chicago, Los Angeles and San Francisco areas — the chances are lower, probably less than 1 in 10,000. That’s what the Seattle data shows, for example. (These numbers don’t include undiagnosed cases, which are often so mild that people do not notice them and do not pass the virus to anyone else.)
Here’s one way to think about a one-in-10,000 daily chance: It would take more than three months for the combined risk to reach just 1 percent.…
[snip]
…In reality, the risks of getting any version of the virus remain small for the vaccinated, and the risks of getting badly sick remain minuscule.
In Seattle on an average recent day, about one out of every one million vaccinated residents have been admitted to a hospital with Covid symptoms. That risk is so close to zero that the human mind can’t easily process it. My best attempt is to say that the Covid risks for most vaccinated people are of the same order of magnitude as risks that people unthinkingly accept every day, like riding in a vehicle.
The bottom line
Delta really has changed the course of the pandemic. It is far more contagious than earlier versions of the virus and calls for precautions that were not necessary a couple of months ago, like wearing masks in some indoor situations.
But even with Delta, the overall risks for the vaccinated remain extremely small. As Dr. Monica Gandhi, an infectious-disease specialist at the University of California, San Francisco, wrote on Friday, “The messaging over the last month in the U.S. has basically served to terrify the vaccinated and make unvaccinated eligible adults doubt the effectiveness of the vaccines.” Neither of those views is warranted.
Y’all are welcome.
”But in the end all of these ideas just manufacture new criminals when the problem isn't a lack of criminals.” -JRB
I hate myself for it but I subscribe to the NYT. I get an email every day called The Morning which has a few lengthy discussions of various issues. Most of them are absurdly slanted and biased and on the whole it’s particularly notable for the developments that are not discussed. I have to admit, however, that of late the COVID ones have been surprisingly balanced and sober.I’ll just leave this snippet from a Sept 7 NYT article here, to take for what it’s worth.
I canceled my subscription for NYT. I don't think the reputation of this former newspaper is repairable.
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