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Thread: COVID-19 vaccines: medical concerns and recommendations

  1. #1201
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    I have not and will not have the opportunity to read this whole thread, so hopefully I am not posting something that has been posted before. However, since my entire immediate family, two extended family members, and I had Covid for a couple of weeks last November, I thought it would be helpful to post what worked for us, particularly since one simple, non-controversial precaution may have potentially kept me out of the hospital and/or prevented me from getting Covid pneumonia.

    That simple step is having a pulse oximeter, checking your blood oxygen levels daily, and calling your doctor if your blood oxygen level drops into the low 90s.

    These devices are not expensive. They cost about $20, and clip to the end of your finger. You have probably had your blood oxygen level measured at various doctor visits.

    When my oxygen level started dropping from my normal level of about 97 to about 92, I called my doctor. He prescribed steroids to reduce the inflammation in my lungs, which, after a few days, brought the blood oxygen level back to normal.

    I believe it was 45dotACP who recommended a breathing exercise device in another thread, and I believe that my experience validates his recommendation. This illness can cause us to fail to breathe as deeply as we should, which contributes to other lung issues.

    We also continued taking vitamins C, D, and zinc, increasing the quantity of zinc. We took aspirin daily to reduce any likelihood of blood clotting. We isolated ourselves from others but not from each other so that we could keep an eye on each other.

    My wife and her parents received monoclonal antibodies within the first 7 days of symptoms. It took us longer to realize that my BMI is just high enough to qualify, so I received an infusion on day 8 after symptoms. It definitely helped my wife and her parents. It may have helped me, although by that point there is some argument that I might have simply recovered anyway. Either way, I strongly encourage anyone who has Covid to check carefully to see whether they qualify for this treatment, and to get it promptly if they do qualify.

    IF someone in your household has Covid, although isolation from others is important, that person should not be so isolated that their condition is not being monitored. My family is aware of one husband who stayed in his basement, with his wife leaving food at the top of the stairs. When he did not come upstairs to get it, she went to check on him. By that point, he needed a double lung transplant. Like so much else during this pandemic, our response cannot be based on fear. If a loved one has Covid, check on them frequently!

    I am not a doctor, but hope this helps someone.
    Last edited by BillSWPA; 01-02-2022 at 05:17 PM.

  2. #1202
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    Some un-vaxxed friends of mine whose entire family had covid in October are now just getting over Omicron, which they’ve had since Christmas. At least for the kids it was like a bad flu, where as they were asymptomatic with delta. It was also slightly worse for the adults too. Luckily no hospitalizations were required, but man this is a strange disease.

  3. #1203
    Quote Originally Posted by Nephrology View Post
    Being highly published is a game of academic medicine. It reflects your ability to network socially more often than it reflects actual scientific acumen or productivity. I have my name on papers and abstracts that I have barely even read. Those are still "my publications." As a matter of fact, for my COVID review paper where I am list as second author, ostensibly to reflect my significant contributions to the manuscript, I wrote I think about 3 paragraphs.

    Still let's accept for the moment that there is no reason that that he cannot walk and chew gum at the same time. Kary Mullis, nobel laureate who invented PCR, went to his grave convinced that HIV does not cause AIDS. This is on the same level as believing the earth is flat. Ironic given that he invented the technology used to confirm HIV infection. Furthermore, in a far less extreme example, the latitude granted by uncertainty is often used by physicians to "go with their gut" despite an uphill gradient of evidence.

    What is hard for most people to understand about the academic medical world is that there are Pubmed-indexed, peer-reviewed articles spanning both the benchtop laboratory sciences to clinical research that can support literally any argument you could possibly make. Turmeric extract preventing molecular senescence? Here you go. Endogenous anti microbial peptides as precipitants of acute heart failure? Here's your huckleberry. Alcohol in moderation prevents cancer? Boom. Alcohol in moderation causes cancer? Right here.

    What is difficult to appreciate is that this ceaseless back and forth of opinions that seem completely at odds with one another is par for the course in the biomedical research world. I also sympathize with the fact that it is hard to decide "which expert" to believe as you are not wrong to say that McCullough has a strong resumé. However, what separates the wheat from the chaff ends up being the global consensus. The global consensus is quite overwhelming regarding plaquenil and vaccination for COVID-19.

    The mRNA COVID vaccines are among the most well studied medical interventions out there. The evidence is pretty overwhelming in their favor, both in terms of their safety profile and their efficacy. Are they bullet proof in the prevention of disease? Of course not. Is there an extremely un-subtle difference in the % of COVID ICU patients who are vaccinated and who are not? Absolutely.

    Because of the highly politicized nature of COVID-19 there are strangely potent emotional investments by the public in treatment X or policy Y in the prevention of COVID-19. Because there is evidence to support nearly every possible position, people like McCullough will always have a way to justify their opinions. Without the ability to parse that info yourself and get the 5000 foot view, you're basically beholden to the media to make that choice for you. Frankly they will never have your best interest in mind. They want your clicks. As a result I am generally pretty disgusted by the coverage of COVID-19 by the vast majority of media outlets, left and right, as they are their alarmist or conspiratorial. Neither is to your benefit.
    Do you disagree with DR Martin Kulldorff, Dr Jay Bhattacharya, and the Great Barrington Declaration position on covid and public health related to covid? Have you even heard of them before?
    Are you loyal to the constitution or the “institution”?

  4. #1204
    THE THIRST MUTILATOR Nephrology's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Blackburn View Post
    Do you disagree with DR Martin Kulldorff, Dr Jay Bhattacharya, and the Great Barrington Declaration position on covid and public health related to covid? Have you even heard of them before?
    Yes I have heard of them. They’re not as impressive as you seem to think they are. They did however have an important point that I feel was lost in the melee.

    Re:the Barrington thing, my understanding is their point of protest was related to the relative costs and benefits of societal public health measures to reduce the spread of COVID 19. This is a point on which we probably agree more than you suspect.

    I have far less conviction about the appropriate public health response to COVID, as that is a field of study outside of the boundaries of my expertise. That said something I do agree with is that there was not enough nuanced discussion about the public health costs and benefits of closing businesses and schools than there should have been. I think the costs - particularly regarding the economy and knock on effects to the mental health of both adults but especially children - were woefully underestimated. Having rotated with the psychiatry service at the childrens hospital in late spring, the effect that tbh is has had on the mental health of children is catastrophic.

    While I am far less decided on what the right course of action was in the early days of pandemic, I do feel that at present the closing of schools Willy nilly is decisively not in the public interest given the weird kabuki theater we are playing with masks. It makes zero sense to me to wear a mask to the hostess station of a restaurant and then to have it off indoors the rest of the time. That’s dumb. The virus is here and clearly the extreme measures we took in spring 2020 are not sustainable, so the half measures we are engaged in now are hard for me to parse.

    Paul ioannidis is a scientist I respect enormously and he raised several good points about this early on. Many of his early predictions were wrong, as was the case for a lot of the scientific community. However what frustrated me was there was no food faith effort to hash these out in a logical cost benefit fashion. Like I said before everything is a question of cost and benefit. Nothing is free in this life. That there was no rationale discussion was frustrating and in my opinion cause avoidable harm.

    Again I do not have a PhD in public health (mine says pharmacology) and in medical school what they teach you about the public health world is skimpy so I don’t have specific thoughts on any of the specific actions that were or were not taken at a public health level to mitigate the pandemic. But there clearly were great costs and the rational discussion of these was simply never held and instead replaced with emotional temper tantra. I am not a fan of using emotion to guide decisions of life and death and never will be. For this reason and many others I am beyond furious with both right and left wing media apprati as they reduced the necessary adult conversation about sacrifice to petulant screaming matches. Meanwhile the patients I saw in the ICU slowly had their lives snuffed out one by one by one. The importance of this “debate” that seemed so pressing to everyone else was lost on me and on them too.

  5. #1205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nephrology View Post
    Yes I have heard of them. They’re not as impressive as you seem to think they are. They did however have an important point that I feel was lost in the melee.

    Re:the Barrington thing, my understanding is their point of protest was related to the relative costs and benefits of societal public health measures to reduce the spread of COVID 19. This is a point on which we probably agree more than you suspect.

    I have far less conviction about the appropriate public health response to COVID, as that is a field of study outside of the boundaries of my expertise. That said something I do agree with is that there was not enough nuanced discussion about the public health costs and benefits of closing businesses and schools than there should have been. I think the costs - particularly regarding the economy and knock on effects to the mental health of both adults but especially children - were woefully underestimated. Having rotated with the psychiatry service at the childrens hospital in late spring, the effect that tbh is has had on the mental health of children is catastrophic.

    While I am far less decided on what the right course of action was in the early days of pandemic, I do feel that at present the closing of schools Willy nilly is decisively not in the public interest given the weird kabuki theater we are playing with masks. It makes zero sense to me to wear a mask to the hostess station of a restaurant and then to have it off indoors the rest of the time. That’s dumb. The virus is here and clearly the extreme measures we took in spring 2020 are not sustainable, so the half measures we are engaged in now are hard for me to parse.

    Paul ioannidis is a scientist I respect enormously and he raised several good points about this early on. Many of his early predictions were wrong, as was the case for a lot of the scientific community. However what frustrated me was there was no food faith effort to hash these out in a logical cost benefit fashion. Like I said before everything is a question of cost and benefit. Nothing is free in this life. That there was no rationale discussion was frustrating and in my opinion cause avoidable harm.

    Again I do not have a PhD in public health (mine says pharmacology) and in medical school what they teach you about the public health world is skimpy so I don’t have specific thoughts on any of the specific actions that were or were not taken at a public health level to mitigate the pandemic. But there clearly were great costs and the rational discussion of these was simply never held and instead replaced with emotional temper tantra. I am not a fan of using emotion to guide decisions of life and death and never will be. For this reason and many others I am beyond furious with both right and left wing media apprati as they reduced the necessary adult conversation about sacrifice to petulant screaming matches. Meanwhile the patients I saw in the ICU slowly had their lives snuffed out one by one by one. The importance of this “debate” that seemed so pressing to everyone else was lost on me and on them too.
    Add me to the list of those who wish a rational discussion could have been had. In my opinion, that discussion would have led to the conclusion that there is little or nothing we could have done to keep most people from getting sick, but there is much we could have done to 1) protect the most vulnerable people, and 2) reduce the number of people who needed hospitalization. These measures would have come at a much lower cost to everyone than what we did.

  6. #1206
    Site Supporter HeavyDuty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillSWPA View Post
    Add me to the list of those who wish a rational discussion could have been had. In my opinion, that discussion would have led to the conclusion that there is little or nothing we could have done to keep most people from getting sick, but there is much we could have done to 1) protect the most vulnerable people, and 2) reduce the number of people who needed hospitalization. These measures would have come at a much lower cost to everyone than what we did.
    That’s the thing. I mask to prevent my spreading to others, for me it’s a matter of personal ethics. I have no illusions that masking will prevent me from getting it, even using KN95s. I limit my exposure to risky situations to minimize my getting it.
    Ken

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  7. #1207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nephrology View Post
    Yes I have heard of them. They’re not as impressive as you seem to think they are. They did however have an important point that I feel was lost in the melee.

    Re:the Barrington thing, my understanding is their point of protest was related to the relative costs and benefits of societal public health measures to reduce the spread of COVID 19. This is a point on which we probably agree more than you suspect.

    I have far less conviction about the appropriate public health response to COVID, as that is a field of study outside of the boundaries of my expertise. That said something I do agree with is that there was not enough nuanced discussion about the public health costs and benefits of closing businesses and schools than there should have been. I think the costs - particularly regarding the economy and knock on effects to the mental health of both adults but especially children - were woefully underestimated. Having rotated with the psychiatry service at the childrens hospital in late spring, the effect that tbh is has had on the mental health of children is catastrophic.

    While I am far less decided on what the right course of action was in the early days of pandemic, I do feel that at present the closing of schools Willy nilly is decisively not in the public interest given the weird kabuki theater we are playing with masks. It makes zero sense to me to wear a mask to the hostess station of a restaurant and then to have it off indoors the rest of the time. That’s dumb. The virus is here and clearly the extreme measures we took in spring 2020 are not sustainable, so the half measures we are engaged in now are hard for me to parse.

    Paul ioannidis is a scientist I respect enormously and he raised several good points about this early on. Many of his early predictions were wrong, as was the case for a lot of the scientific community. However what frustrated me was there was no food faith effort to hash these out in a logical cost benefit fashion. Like I said before everything is a question of cost and benefit. Nothing is free in this life. That there was no rationale discussion was frustrating and in my opinion cause avoidable harm.

    Again I do not have a PhD in public health (mine says pharmacology) and in medical school what they teach you about the public health world is skimpy so I don’t have specific thoughts on any of the specific actions that were or were not taken at a public health level to mitigate the pandemic. But there clearly were great costs and the rational discussion of these was simply never held and instead replaced with emotional temper tantra. I am not a fan of using emotion to guide decisions of life and death and never will be. For this reason and many others I am beyond furious with both right and left wing media apprati as they reduced the necessary adult conversation about sacrifice to petulant screaming matches. Meanwhile the patients I saw in the ICU slowly had their lives snuffed out one by one by one. The importance of this “debate” that seemed so pressing to everyone else was lost on me and on them too.
    It's a short read, if you're interested. The three authors are as impressive as any other public health experts and the dismissive response to their opinions - particularly from Collins, who I've met during my short NIH stint and for whom I had great respect for - is revolting. Considering the GBD was authored in 10/20, it stands up remarkably well, although all three authors refined their opinions on natural immunity in the past year.
    https://gbdeclaration.org/

  8. #1208
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeavyDuty View Post
    That’s the thing. I mask to prevent my spreading to others, for me it’s a matter of personal ethics. I have no illusions that masking will prevent me from getting it, even using KN95s. I limit my exposure to risky situations to minimize my getting it.
    When I received my monoclonal antibody infusion, I wore a KN95, and found myself very hesitant to take it off to eat the recommended snack. Even though all the other patients around me were already sick, I did not know the extent to which the nurses had developed immunity from prior infection. I did not want to be responsible for harming the people who helped me.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Any legal information I may post is general information, and is not legal advice. Such information may or may not apply to your specific situation. I am not your attorney unless an attorney-client relationship is separately and privately established.

  9. #1209
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillSWPA View Post
    I have not and will not have the opportunity to read this whole thread, so hopefully I am not posting something that has been posted before. However, since my entire immediate family, two extended family members, and I had Covid for a couple of weeks last November, I thought it would be helpful to post what worked for us, particularly since one simple, non-controversial precaution may have potentially kept me out of the hospital and/or prevented me from getting Covid pneumonia.

    That simple step is having a pulse oximeter, checking your blood oxygen levels daily, and calling your doctor if your blood oxygen level drops into the low 90s.

    These devices are not expensive. They cost about $20, and clip to the end of your finger. You have probably had your blood oxygen level measured at various doctor visits.

    When my oxygen level started dropping from my normal level of about 97 to about 92, I called my doctor. He prescribed steroids to reduce the inflammation in my lungs, which, after a few days, brought the blood oxygen level back to normal.

    I believe it was 45dotACP who recommended a breathing exercise device in another thread, and I believe that my experience validates his recommendation. This illness can cause us to fail to breathe as deeply as we should, which contributes to other lung issues.

    We also continued taking vitamins C, D, and zinc, increasing the quantity of zinc. We took aspirin daily to reduce any likelihood of blood clotting. We isolated ourselves from others but not from each other so that we could keep an eye on each other.

    My wife and her parents received monoclonal antibodies within the first 7 days of symptoms. It took us longer to realize that my BMI is just high enough to qualify, so I received an infusion on day 8 after symptoms. It definitely helped my wife and her parents. It may have helped me, although by that point there is some argument that I might have simply recovered anyway. Either way, I strongly encourage anyone who has Covid to check carefully to see whether they qualify for this treatment, and to get it promptly if they do qualify.

    IF someone in your household has Covid, although isolation from others is important, that person should not be so isolated that their condition is not being monitored. My family is aware of one husband who stayed in his basement, with his wife leaving food at the top of the stairs. When he did not come upstairs to get it, she went to check on him. By that point, he needed a double lung transplant. Like so much else during this pandemic, our response cannot be based on fear. If a loved one has Covid, check on them frequently!

    I am not a doctor, but hope this helps someone.
    Glad you are feeling better man. Sounds like you worked out a well thought out plan for recovery, kept a good attitude and were able to access and stay consistent with useful treatments.

    I think you touch on a key point and not letting the fear surrounding this pandemic be the driving factor in our day to day lives. Your plan was neither panicked and afraid, nor was it uninformed and careless. That's important.

    I think somewhere around the time Delta variant made land and the development of a viable vaccine, I started believing that containment measures like lockdowns etc, might not be useful, given how infectious Delta was.

    I have shifted on my belief to where I probably stand at the moment, which is that the use of surgical masks and vaccination is probably the best combo for protecting oneself.

    With how contagious Omicron is, I doubt we should be considering lockdowns, rather than emphasizing vaccination of the vulnerable and encouraging the use of surgical masks.

    Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

  10. #1210
    THE THIRST MUTILATOR Nephrology's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillSWPA View Post
    When I received my monoclonal antibody infusion, I wore a KN95, and found myself very hesitant to take it off to eat the recommended snack. Even though all the other patients around me were already sick, I did not know the extent to which the nurses had developed immunity from prior infection. I did not want to be responsible for harming the people who helped me.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    To be clear, going to a restaurant is decidedly a different can of worms than going to an outpatient infusion center...

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