Afghanistan

[BWT]

I don't know shit about shit. But I thank you guys from the bottom of my heart.

This. I 100% agree with this. I don’t know what to do or say, but I can say I just feel unspeakable gratitude.

Thank you all for all you’ve done.

My opinion on the situation on Afghanistan is we set out to rectify a wrong. I certainly believe that happened for just shy of 20 years.

I feel like as a token citizen our leadership in our country failed to give a vision long term for Afghanistan and what success was and what completion meant. But, it seems what was found a broken war torn state where terrorists could hide in obscurity. What I did see and have seen from our troops is tremendous sacrifice, commitment, and to be honest a lot of prosperity brought to Afghanistan. I think nothing was in vain, and I think that the benefit and impact will be felt.

I could be an idiot though. But, that’s how I see it.

[JHC]

This. I 100% agree with this. I don’t know what to do or say, but I can say I just feel unspeakable gratitude.

Thank you all for all you’ve done.

My opinion on the situation on Afghanistan is we set out to rectify a wrong. I certainly believe that happened for just shy of 20 years.

I feel like as a token citizen our leadership in our country failed to give a vision long term for Afghanistan and what success was and what completion meant. But, it seems what was found a broken war torn state where terrorists could hide in obscurity. What I did see and have seen from our troops is tremendous sacrifice, commitment, and to be honest a lot of prosperity brought to Afghanistan. I think nothing was in vain, and I think that the benefit and impact will be felt.

I could be an idiot though. But, that’s how I see it.

That is a well reasoned and thoughtful post. Re the long term vision, you are reflecting what I'd say is conventional wisdom for sure. I don't really agree with conventional wisdom on this and a lot of other topics for that matter but that's ok. Reasonable people differ.

I have studied COIN a bit and comparative politics of the 3rd world and there are rarely clear cut outcomes as many American's prefer to see in nation state wars of the past.

Not that we didn't make mistakes as have happened in every single war ever, American or otherwise.

I wonder if we might not should have pursued a bottom up re-org of their civic systems and government vs a central govt and top down which some might say was contrary to AFG's long long history. IDK. Not having ever managed a significant war (or any for that matter) simultaneously with the rebuilding of a society, implementation of more modern civil systems, I try to be a little humble regarding shoulda woulda coulda's.

IMO this is a really superb movie about AFG that captures a lot of it's exceptional challenge. It's a Canadian film about the Canadian military managing war and development in Helmand province.

It's worth remembering that our NATO allies came to our aid in this this war and have lost over 1000 of their own troops in AFG.

But there is an exchange between a direct action guy and a INTEL COIN guy that really says a lot about our goals/outcomes.
I will not give it away.

[BWT]

That is a well reasoned and thoughtful post. Re the long term vision, you are reflecting what I'd say is conventional wisdom for sure. I don't really agree with conventional wisdom on this and a lot of other topics for that matter but that's ok. Reasonable people differ.

I have studied COIN a bit and comparative politics of the 3rd world and there are rarely clear cut outcomes as many American's prefer to see in nation state wars of the past.

Not that we didn't make mistakes as have happened in every single war ever, American or otherwise.

I wonder if we might not should have pursued a bottom up re-org of their civic systems and government vs a central govt and top down which some might say was contrary to AFG's long long history. IDK. Not having ever managed a significant war (or any for that matter) simultaneously with the rebuilding of a society, implementation of more modern civil systems, I try to be a little humble regarding shoulda woulda coulda's.

IMO this is a really superb movie about AFG that captures a lot of it's exceptional challenge. It's a Canadian film about the Canadian military managing war and development in Helmand province.

It's worth remembering that our NATO allies came to our aid in this this war and have lost over 1000 of their own troops in AFG.

But there is an exchange between a direct action guy and a INTEL COIN guy that really says a lot about our goals/outcomes.
I will not give it away.

Thanks for sharing. That’s really thoughtful - I don’t have too much to say to it (I think you’re correct it’s a very complex issue) and honestly I feel like I’ve probably already said too much in a thread among veterans just talking about their experiences. But I did want to express gratitude and support if I could - I hope what I’m saying makes sense.

[LittleLebowski]

Gotta respect some tough bastards that fight when they know the end result and that its inevitable. If you can copy and paste Id like to read it.

https://news.yahoo.com/viral-video-t...153925097.html

A video obtained by CNN of the Taliban executing 22 Afghan commandos as they surrendered has exacerbated criticism of the withdrawal of US troops from Afghanistan ordered by President Joe Biden.

The massacre, which human-rights groups have described as an apparent war crime, adds to the many questions being asked about the Afghan military's capacity to defeat or even contain the Taliban now that the US is pulling out.

Responding to the news of the executed Afghan commandos, GOP Rep. Adam Kinzinger, a US Air Force veteran who flew missions in Afghanistan, tweeted, "This is horrible-yet it's the reality of announcing the U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan. Removing the peacekeepers and leaving the Afghan people without support is a grave mistake, Mr. President."

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell on Tuesday called Biden's Afghanistan withdrawal a "global embarrassment."

The incident took place on June 16 in the town of Dawlat Abad in Faryab province, which is close to Afghanistan's border with Turkmenistan. The Taliban dismissed the video as a fabrication. But the Red Cross confirmed that 22 bodies were retrieved, and CNN spoke with witnesses and verified videos of the incident.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Reading:

The American War in Afghanistan: A History
Carter Malkasian

The takeaway summary points are that:

a. Americans are seen as foreign invaders that the is more important to most Afghanis than any good works
b. Islam is the driving force for most and we aren't.
c. The Afghan male is quite OK with the traditional role of women, our goal to 'save' them is antithetical to them. That's why all the figures on the progress of women are really reasons to oppose us. I wondered why with all the progress for women, the males associated with these women are fighting like tigers for them.
d. We tried to impose a US/European governnace structure on the country rather than allowing them to come to some kind of consensus among themselves after the disposing of the Taliban. Some debate about allowing Taliban to enter into a consensus governing structure after the leaders were dispersed.
e. The hubris of bringing 'democracy' to other cultures with long history.
f. The Pakistanis collaborated all over the place with Osama and Taliban.

[Mark D]

My deep gratitude to Americans and our allies who served in Afghanistan. Especially to those who were wounded or killed.

It's horrific but unsurprising that the taliban are making reprisals and carrying out executions. The North Vietnamese did the same thing to South Vietnamese who supported the US. Many in the south were jailed for long periods of time, or simply vanished. It sucks to be a US supporter when the US withdraws.

Slightly out of my lane because I missed GWOT, but Bill Rapier, who has experience in Afghanistan, has an interesting proposal. Instead of trying to nation-build or install democracy, he suggests we should have smashed the taliban, installed a friendly government, and left with the warning "if you get out out of line, we'll be back shortly to smash you again". Repeat as necessary. This makes as much sense as anything else. He discusses it here, although I can't recall the timestamp.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

That idea has been floated for a long time. It was a flaw in our cultural blindness that all cultures want to be like us. They will welcome our intervention and installation of our form of government with people who seem to be our puppets. They might have understood a pure revenge motive as theirs is a revenge culture. Kill Osama and his crew (debate about screwing up that mission early on).

Gulf War II was a similar delusion that we would be welcomed as the Liberators of Paris (oh, Baghdad) and a new government would be a duplicate of ours and welcomed. Why we even designed a new flag for them (that looked like an Israeli flag).

Bush had touch of messianic mission in him. Others did too. Lots of them thought that trade with China would democratize them. They never conceived that they could run their Communist government (which looks like other dynastic autocracies in China from the past as well as Communist) and modern business techniques. They didn't understand that their goal would be to re-establish their place as the central Middle Kingdom of the area with vassals states and then look to the rest of the world.

Some cultures want to stay what we consider as religious and human rights primitives and don't want to modernize. Some want to take technology and become peers with their cultures. The Japanese did it and now the Chinese. We are always amazed when they pull it off.

[Yung]

Pulitzer Prize Winning Reuters Photojournalist Killed By Taliban
https://timcast.com/pulitzer-prize-w...ed-by-taliban/

[JHC]

That idea has been floated for a long time. It was a flaw in our cultural blindness that all cultures want to be like us. They will welcome our intervention and installation of our form of government with people who seem to be our puppets. They might have understood a pure revenge motive as theirs is a revenge culture. Kill Osama and his crew (debate about screwing up that mission early on).

Gulf War II was a similar delusion that we would be welcomed as the Liberators of Paris (oh, Baghdad) and a new government would be a duplicate of ours and welcomed. Why we even designed a new flag for them (that looked like an Israeli flag).

Bush had touch of messianic mission in him. Others did too. Lots of them thought that trade with China would democratize them. They never conceived that they could run their Communist government (which looks like other dynastic autocracies in China from the past as well as Communist) and modern business techniques. They didn't understand that their goal would be to re-establish their place as the central Middle Kingdom of the area with vassals states and then look to the rest of the world.

Some cultures want to stay what we consider as religious and human rights primitives and don't want to modernize. Some want to take technology and become peers with their cultures. The Japanese did it and now the Chinese. We are always amazed when they pull it off.

There is vast data amassed that the vast majority of Afghans do not wish to remain primitives.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

If the vast majority don't believe, how come that vast majority can wrest control from the Taliban? You might debate that with the author who seems to have reasonable experience in the area.