Labor shortages in the skilled trades discussion

[Joe in PNG]

I've known a few master level BS artist, and am amazed that most have never gotten themselves into a sales position. If they could only use that power to sell good merch instead of their own non-existant or crappy skills, they'd be rich.

For instance, we had a guy here who was at the Grandmaster level at BS. He was very, very good at talking himself and his skills up, and never delivered. For instance, if you asked him to cut a couple of boards to length, he'd talk for hours about how great he was at cutting boards, about all the boards he cut in the past, and about how he could modify the saw to be better when it came to cutting lumber. He would then take the saw apart, destroying it in the process, and disappear for a few days having never cut a single board. He also borrowed a truck from another organization, and basically destroyed it. He promised that he'd totally rebuild the thing, took it half apart, then left.

[Snapshot]

This thread is awesome ...

It just might be possible (that's sarcasm) that people gain experience as they grow in the workforce, and that every generation was once that shitty, horrible, lazy, useless generation to someone else until they took over the reigns as the older generation timed out. I think a quality worth striving for is recognizing that you're not born awesome on the job from day 1 and that you too, indeed, once upon a time, were that little shit to someone else that you're bitching about today. I hope to keep this in mind as I age out of my late 30s. It's also possible that if you're not getting the employees you want, it might be because you're not as good an employer in numerous respects as you think you are, which is basically what is being pointed out by one of our newer tradesmen in the thread.

ETA: Truly, one of the things I hope to not do as I age is become the annoying old person blaming the new generation tilting at windmills for everything while thinking that my shit doesn't stink.

Sir, I reject your sarcasm because in my experience this is so true. At work we had a couple of senior technologists who were extremely knowledgeable and effective, and they led the way on every important I project and activity, while the next generation seemed to hold back. We were worried about how things would work when they senior guys eventually left, but as it turns out the next generation emerged, equally knowledgeable and effective, in some ways better because they had more up to date training and had also learned from watching and working with their predecessors.

Of course there are still some that bear watching, and just like any other field of human endeavor there are slackers and morons to work around. But it is much more individual than generational, and while I miss some of the ones that have left I am confident in the abilities of most of those who remain.

[OlongJohnson]

I've known a few master level BS artist, and am amazed that most have never gotten themselves into a sales position. If they could only use that power to sell good merch instead of their own non-existant or crappy skills, they'd be rich.

For instance, we had a guy here who was at the Grandmaster level at BS. He was very, very good at talking himself and his skills up, and never delivered. For instance, if you asked him to cut a couple of boards to length, he'd talk for hours about how great he was at cutting boards, about all the boards he cut in the past, and about how he could modify the saw to be better when it came to cutting lumber. He would then take the saw apart, destroying it in the process, and disappear for a few days having never cut a single board. He also borrowed a truck from another organization, and basically destroyed it. He promised that he'd totally rebuild the thing, took it half apart, then left.

They never got into a sales position because in sales, you have to deliver results or you starve. And you have to make sure that what you sell people actually gets delivered, or you don't build a book of business. Sales, done well, is serious, hard work, and people who do it well and take care of their customers and their deals earn their commissions. True bullshitters fail in sales just like they fail in everything else.

[rob_s]

This thread is awesome, because we have the virtuous hard-working nobody-does-it-better-than-my-generation bitching about younger folks who are apparently bitches, and then we have younger folks explaining why nobody wants to take a job working for the bitchy old people that aren't as awesome as they think they are.

Old people bitching about the younger generations is a past-time that spans every civilization across every age. The story that the newest generation in the workforce is so bad that they're a blight upon society and civilization will end as we know it because of their incompetence and laziness is probably the same spiel that old artisans in Alexandria Egypt were bitching about thousands of years ago....and yet here we are, the sun still rises everyday, and society is more productive than ever and the human development index continues to grow.

It just might be possible (that's sarcasm) that people gain experience as they grow in the workforce, and that every generation was once that shitty, horrible, lazy, useless generation to someone else until they took over the reigns as the older generation timed out. I think a quality worth striving for is recognizing that you're not born awesome on the job from day 1 and that you too, indeed, once upon a time, were that little shit to someone else that you're bitching about today. I hope to keep this in mind as I age out of my late 30s. It's also possible that if you're not getting the employees you want, it might be because you're not as good an employer in numerous respects as you think you are, which is basically what is being pointed out by one of our newer tradesmen in the thread.

ETA: Truly, one of the things I hope to not do as I age is become the annoying old person blaming the new generation tilting at windmills for everything while thinking that my shit doesn't stink.

The only thing sillier than one generation blaming the other is reducing the argument to a generational one.

[MVS]

This thread is awesome, because we have the virtuous hard-working nobody-does-it-better-than-my-generation bitching about younger folks who are apparently bitches, and then we have younger folks explaining why nobody wants to take a job working for the bitchy old people that aren't as awesome as they think they are.

Old people bitching about the younger generations is a past-time that spans every civilization across every age. The story that the newest generation in the workforce is so bad that they're a blight upon society and civilization will end as we know it because of their incompetence and laziness is probably the same spiel that old artisans in Alexandria Egypt were bitching about thousands of years ago....and yet here we are, the sun still rises everyday, and society is more productive than ever and the human development index continues to grow.

It just might be possible (that's sarcasm) that people gain experience as they grow in the workforce, and that every generation was once that shitty, horrible, lazy, useless generation to someone else until they took over the reigns as the older generation timed out. I think a quality worth striving for is recognizing that you're not born awesome on the job from day 1 and that you too, indeed, once upon a time, were that little shit to someone else that you're bitching about today. I hope to keep this in mind as I age out of my late 30s. It's also possible that if you're not getting the employees you want, it might be because you're not as good an employer in numerous respects as you think you are, which is basically what is being pointed out by one of our newer tradesmen in the thread.

ETA: Truly, one of the things I hope to not do as I age is become the annoying old person blaming the new generation tilting at windmills for everything while thinking that my shit doesn't stink.

So I had to go back and check my post to be sure, but no, not just blaming the young generation. Spreading the blame around. Looks like a lot of the others are too. That being said I think there is a lot of laziness in this newest generation but much of that is because of how they are being guided and what they are being promised

[LJP]

I simply cannot comment on “skilled trade” labor. What I can comment on is the service industry. As I type this, I am sitting out side a coffeeshop (imagine that, me and coffee, but I digress). I just had a conversation with the manager on this topic. They are opening a second location, and the bottleneck is the interviewing and training. It has become cliché for new hires to fail to show on the second day of training. They simply can’t hire enough people to staff the upcoming opening. Another friend of mine is the GM for a local chain of restaurants—he called this “the worst labor market in 20 years,” and “a total shit show.”

One of the venues I book pulled half of the weekly concerts on the summer series, because they can’t keep enough staff to stay open into the evening to run the mid-week concert night. Totally an employee thing: they will hire people and train them for a week, then they ghost. Over and over again, like Sisyphus and that damn rock, only it’s apps/interviews/orientations repeat… all summer.

Every grocery I’ve been in (a whopping 3, but still) has a “now hiring sign” up. All the McDonalds have “15/hr text to apply” lettering on their outside reader boards all over town.

I’ve never seen anything like it. Supposedly, WA’s enhanced unemployment lapses this month, so things may change, but right now, it’s a spectacle to see, for sure.

At any rate, carry on…

This… not really “service industry” or necessarily “skilled trades,” but the commercial ambulance service that I work at just hosted another hiring class. We were slated to hire 20, and struggled to get 13 applicants, most of whom have no experience whatsoever. One of our hires was NC/NS after two days of training. Not sure if I scared her away with the suicide statistics for 1st responders, or whatever made her decide that commercial EMS wasn’t her gig. Some of it is the effects of COVID, and some of it is just another generational cycle. Most of the “kids” we hire these days are very smart, but just don’t pay attention.

[DDTSGM]

Around 2025 we're going to see a reset in the economy because of AI and job loss. Probably become apparent in a few years when the slide begins.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkel...h=52e6614d1a52

This should be screamingly obvious for anyone with half a brain.

What are we going to do with all the people who are what we now consider working age?

A couple posts up folks were talking about self-checkout, I got no problem with that EXCEPT I've never heard of a business saying 'hey, we've passed the saving on to you, everything in the store is a penny cheaper.'

Myself, I like shopping at Aldi's. Those checkers move right along. The other day I was buying some salad fixings and the lady said 'cash or charge.' I said 'charge.' She said 'please put your card in the machine.' It was one of those rare moments where there was no one waiting and I said jokingly 'Hey, what's the hurry, you haven't finished yet and there is no one in line?' She told me doesn't make any difference they are timed on every transaction.

Standards, so rare and old fashioned they are written on the walls of caves.

[MickAK]

What are we going to do with all the people who are what we now consider working age?

Prison or the military. Same as it ever was.

[Joe in PNG]

This should be screamingly obvious for anyone with half a brain.

What are we going to do with all the people who are what we now consider working age?

The peasant class has to come from somewhere. Pay too many of your people to do nothing, and your society collapses.

It's interesting to note that we still don't know all of the science and technology that the Romans had, and much of what we do know is the result of modern investigations and archeology.
How to make cement, for instance, was lost for centuries. Reading this thread does shed light on some of the reasons why a lot of that knowledge disappeared.

[rob_s]

A couple posts up folks were talking about self-checkout, I got no problem with that EXCEPT I've never heard of a business saying 'hey, we've passed the saving on to you, everything in the store is a penny cheaper.'

I don’t expect to see a reduction in price. I expect that most of this is that they’ve already started to see a reduction in profits, and someone at corporate has done the math finally and said “ok, today’s the day, Biden wants middle-school drop-outs to make $42k a year so we gotta stop the bleeding now before we go out of business”.

She told me doesn't make any difference they are timed on every transaction.

Standards, so rare and old fashioned they are written on the walls of caves.

So much this. I RANT about this at work.

Set the standard.
Measure performance.
Correct missteps either with training or revision to the standard.
Revise the standards as technology changes.
Hold people accountable.

We are TERRIFIED that if we actually tell people what to do and then hold them accountable to that, they’ll walk. This is part of what I refer to as the millennialization. Boomers and Xers have bought into this bullshit, maybe some actual millennials too, and the managers have scared themselves out of managing. It’s like like teenager afraid to talk to a pretty girl. I have three millennials on my staff. They all respond well to being held to a standard. My department is one of the most successful in the company. We track our budget, we track our schedule, we advise when we can’t meet one of the other and why, we come up with ways to mitigate those issues, we document our work, we even do jobs that aren’t ours…. I have zero issues with millennials. I have a massive issues with idiots like Sinek making millions scaring people.

And why do we care if they walk? Because we are booking and burning baby, booking and burning. And even if they screw up, making half of a $2M fee is still better than nothing at all, particularly when we are in a business where all of our on-tie costs are covered.

There’s two ways to increase profits. The broadsword or the rapier. The broadsword (increasing volume) is gross and heavy and easy. The rapier (increasing efficiency) is intelligent and elegant and considered to be hard. The problem is that when everything goes to shit the broadsword leaves you ever-extended and open to counter, while the rapier leaves you nimble and ready to parry. I keep hearing about “agile” and all I think is “no, we’re just brute”.