Self defense for a women's office?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

While working in NPE for many years, I had a Sabre OC in my pocket, a Delica and a Surefire in my backpocket. I used the Delica to open packages and things to make it part of my known dress. The only two folks who knew its other purpose were a SEAL (yes a real one, who became a geology prof) and a kid from a South East Asian culture who commented on it. A fixed blade might be a little too much if visible for a school.

My mother-in-law (from Eastern Europe) commented - a man should carry a knife. The campus cops liked to demonstrated their gear. I was buddy with some of the chiefs but the last one wasn't friendly to the gun friendly faculty. So he comes to the demo in his vest but right front he had a Benchmade automatic knife at center chest. I commented on 'free knife in a fight'. Didn't like that.

Some of the women faculty asked me about OC options. We designed office and had our desk placement, I made sure mine didn't trap me in the end of the office, I had access to the door. Some folks asked and I explained that never let yourself be trapped by a possible nut to the door by the furniture. Some got it.

There was a debate about glass walls for offices. The rationale was that they made for open space and friendliness. Also, they kept you from screwing in your office (a 60's and 70's custom). However, you also might want just to take a nap.

There was a debate about run, hide, fight. Hard to hide with glass walls. I asked the SEAL prof if glass walls were protective. Ha - he said you could take them down easily with a few rounds.

Thus, we got motorized drop down screens. One lab bothered me, right against the glass walls, they had all the tanks of compressed who knows what. The building had lots and lots of decorative pillars and alcoves. Clearing that at a deliberate place would have been a horror. The major classrooms were full of choke points for evacuation.

[olstyn]

There was a debate about run, hide, fight. Hard to hide with glass walls. I asked the SEAL prof if glass walls were protective. Ha - he said you could take them down easily with a few rounds.

At my workplace, it wasn't even a debate. It was just a required "training" we had to sit through instructing us on run/hide/fight.

The idiocy of the picture in said presentation/training of 3 or 4 people trying to hold a door shut while a bad guy with an AR was poking the muzzle of said AR through the opening of the door was amazing. My reaction as someone who actually shoots guns was basically "the bad guy would just back off and put 10-15 rounds through the door, resulting in some number of dead/injured people and a door that was no longer difficult to open." There are also designated rooms in the building which supposedly have extra secure doors with wedges intended to allow you to keep them shut from the inside. Of course basically all of those rooms have glass walls, so again, bad guy just puts some rounds through the door and/or the glass and moves on with life.

Run/hide/fight as presented by corporations (and presumably also schools) is just insanely tone deaf, and even the relatively uninitiated see through it in mere moments when even one or two of the ridiculous things about it are pointed out to them.

[Coyotesfan97]

Like the dog idea. A well trained beast is a joy, but the initial and sustainment training can be daunting. With the trend to theapy dogs, and emotional support peacocks, I doubt anyone will bat an eye. And a trained dog is necessary, if protection is a goal. 95%+ of the dogs out there will not protect owners, no matter what the imagined bond and trust levels are like. They likely won't have the nerves, or psychological makeup to do it, and they have likely been taught since they were puppies not to bite. A bunch of "protective" behavior is simply posturing, in an effort to avoid the fight. It is not fair to expect a dog to "rely on its instincts" to protect a person, paricularly at the risk of injury to itself. In nature canids do not frequently fight with other species. They fight among themselves for relative ranking, and those fights are rarely injurious, let alone fatal. Posturing and timely submission are the hallmarks of intraspecies fighting. They prey on smaller animals, and try to avoid pissing off larger ones. I would go so far as to argue that there is little instinctive behavior that makes a dog protect a person. Much of it is posturing, panic, and desperation. Some dogs will do it, just like some people will "rise to the occasion" of a self protection situation. A vast majority will default to their level of training. And zero training is zero training.

A close friend of mine, who has known my working dog since he was about 9 weeks old commented a few years ago that he believed my dog would protect me. At the time my dog had only bit bite pillows, tugs, and bite sleeves. Those were all visual cues that he had pemission to bite, and biting rules applied. I was under no such illusion. Even a decent sports dog will get confused the first time it is offered a leg sleeve, let alone being offered a body bite. They have to be taught the rules of biting and frequently they need a couple of bites giving them permission to take something other than an arm.

ETA: If deterrence, rather than protection is the goal, then most of what I posted is null and void. But if deterrence is the goal, do not expect the dog to protect.

@Coyotesfan97

In the same vein, I get a kick out of people who tell me that a woman should not carry a knife (fixed blade) for defense, because it will be taken away from her and used against her. Training is preferred, but desperation and panic can work. During that askhole discussion I offer the woman an uncapped marker and challange dude to take it away from her without getting "cut" to hell and back.

@Cecil Burch

pat

Basically what Pat said. My unit has a reputation for getting “hard” dogs and we like Mals and Dutch Shepherds from Holland trained in KNPV. KNPV was developed to train dogs for police work and the puppies start about 8-12 weeks. So from the time they are puppies they are trained and conditioned to bite the suit. The tricky part is transitioning them from the suit to biting for real. You don’t know for sure if a dog will bite for real until he gets a street bite. Our training for new dogs usually gives us a pretty good idea if they will.

Dogs survive the world with fight or flight. An untrained dog will generally posture and show defense but he more than likely is going to use the flight mode if he is pushed by a determined attacker. There is no shame to them for running like there is for humans. If you back a dog into a corner where there is no escape and push him he’ll go into fight mode as a last resort.

I’d looked at an untrained dog or a “protection” dog as a deterrent just as I view an unarmed security guard at the local stop and rob. For the vast majority of people a hackles up, barking GSD is going to work. But there’s a small percentage of people it’s not. In my old world we prepared our dogs for meeting and biting/fighting the violent one percenter.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

At work, we did not have mandatory run,hide,fight training. There was a presentation by the campus law that was voluntary, plus an online show. Both were trivial. Interestingly, very few faculty went to the presentation. Lots of staff did as it was time off from real work (unlike faculty).

We did have mandatory sexual harassment training videos that you had to view and it was clocked. One took you through what was a sensible list of really stupid behaviors and things to say. Another was a video of a ballet teacher molesting an 8 year old girl as a lesson. There was push back on the latter as we didn't teach 8 year olds.

Most of this sort of training is to establish a liability defense if things go south.

I did find that many faculty were incapable of really conceptualizing fighting beyond some lucky tackle. Our major classroom was a killing field for various reasons if you planned it. I'll skip the reasons. I did mention it to the TX legislature when I testified on campus carry. Got that remark on TV!!

So I said to one young nice male colleague, what would you do it a shooter came in? He said: What can you do?

That's that. In a department meeting, I said training is good. The chair said we are glad you trained as female prof X trained. I said, what did she do. Oh - she plays Rugby.

[olstyn]

Yeah, institutional cognitive dissonance is a pretty tough wall to try to break down, especially if you're the little guy.

It's easy enough to have rational conversations about it with individual coworkers, but trying to actually change the corporate direction on it...well, there's a lot of inertia there.

[UNM1136]

At my workplace, it wasn't even a debate. It was just a required "training" we had to sit through instructing us on run/hide/fight.

The idiocy of the picture in said presentation/training of 3 or 4 people trying to hold a door shut while a bad guy with an AR was poking the muzzle of said AR through the opening of the door was amazing. My reaction as someone who actually shoots guns was basically "the bad guy would just back off and put 10-15 rounds through the door, resulting in some number of dead/injured people and a door that was no longer difficult to open." There are also designated rooms in the building which supposedly have extra secure doors with wedges intended to allow you to keep them shut from the inside. Of course basically all of those rooms have glass walls, so again, bad guy just puts some rounds through the door and/or the glass and moves on with life.

Run/hide/fight as presented by corporations (and presumably also schools) is just insanely tone deaf, and even the relatively uninitiated see through it in mere moments when even one or two of the ridiculous things about it are pointed out to them.

One thing that has worked in the past has been defenders laying down and bracing the inward swinging doors with their feet. Something I still teach. BUT the only real protection there from a determined attacker is ignorance on the part of the attacker. A body may or may not keep a door from swinging in...I prolly shared a bit too much there on a public forum, so PM if you need more specific information....I also like doorstops and other stuff to limit door swing....but glass walls is just stupid, and does not allow you to hide or fight very effectively.

I currently teach ALERRT's Avoid, Deny, Defend. Maybe semantics, but sometimes words have meaning...

pat

[UNM1136]

So from the time they are puppies they are trained and conditioned to bite the suit.

"Eyes to the outside..."😜

Our training director is an actual member of the KNPV, membership originating during that very short period of time that foreigners were allowed, but those damn Dutch rules....

pat

[Coyotesfan97]

"Eyes to the outside..."😜

Our training director is an actual member of the KNPV, membership originating during that very short period of time that foreigners were allowed, but those damn Dutch rules....

pat

There are a few American breeders and trainers who could take their US dogs to Holland and get certified dogs but rules. I still want to go to the National KNPV trial.

[Duces Tecum]

In the same vein, I get a kick out of people who tell me that a woman should not carry a knife (fixed blade) for defense, because it will be taken away from her and used against her. Training is preferred, but desperation and panic can work. During that askhole discussion I offer the woman an uncapped marker and challange dude to take it away from her without getting "cut" to hell and back.

There's a difference, I think, between a thug separating a woman from her marker and the same thug beating the shit out of her and then collecting the marker at his / her / its convenience.

[CraigS]

I guess I am not a very nice person because one thing that bothers me about this whole thread is why would anyone put themselves in this position. I understand that it has been common practice for a long time for the counselor to sit w/ the person in a private office w/ no barriers. But for me, at some point, the safety of the counselor absolutely outweighs the success of the counseling.