Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 11

Thread: AAR: Law of Self Defense Instructor Program

  1. #1

    AAR: Law of Self Defense Instructor Program

    I took this class recently, and since one of my biggest hesitations in signing up was a serious lack of AAR's about the class, I thought I'd write this up.
    This is an online program that costs $650 if you pay it in one lump sum and more if you split it into payments. It's all narrated power points with a test at the end. Of course, the result of passing is that you become a certified Law of Self Defense Instructor. My rationale for taking the class is that I recently did the massive training program required to become an NC concealed carry instructor and yet recognize perhaps I still have some weak points. So I'm trying to improve as a shooter, and also fill gaps in my knowledge.

    Heading into the class, my background in legal stuff related to self defense is (a) the NC concealed carry class itself, (b) Lee Weems's online Standing Your Ground class, (c) a few related online seminars through Active Self Protection, (d) reading Branca's and Ayoob's books multiple times, along with some other books like Miller/Kane's Scaling Force and such, and (e) taking the approximately 3 hours of training on law that NC requires for its concealed carry instructors. (It's called a 5-hour class, but between breaks and the test/grading period, I doubt it was really much more than 3. Call it 3 1/2 if you like.) So I have more of a background than some people might have going into such a class, but certainly nothing really specialized or high level.

    According to my account at LOSD, I spent 15 hours on the class. I think this is inflated a little bit due to times I was still logged in but not actively working on the class. I do expect I put in more than 12 hours, up to maybe 14 or more. I actually listened to the narrated power points. All of them. The slides are available to read through without listening to Branca's narration if you'd like. I am not sure you would miss out on anything really significant if you took that approach--doing so would no doubt save you a few hours if you're a quick reader. Branca doesn't necessarily just read the slides, but his narration does stick very closely to the printed material, and although I could be misremembering, I can't call to mind anything significant from the class that was there merely verbally, without also showing up on a slide.

    The material was well organized and clearly presented. It's broken up into 13 modules that run from about 20 minutes to about an hour if you run the narrated slide show straight through. I stopped every so often to take notes. I actually got quite a few pages of notes out of the material. It covers the expected "5 elements" stuff in detail but does some other things like a very brief history of self defense law, the court system, and interactions with the police. Apart from the history bit there wasn't anything surprising. It ends with a 60 question test--true false, multiple choice, etc. Not essays or whatever.

    In what sense is this an instructor course? It doesn't give you any pre-made power points or syllabi to use in teaching classes. It doesn't include instruction about instructing. I suppose it's an instructor curse simply in the sense that it's a detailed presentation of the material.

    Weakness: this material was produced in 2015, and it still has a fair number of glitches, whether misspellings on the slides, or occasionally a repeated slide, or a slide obviously from another presentation with the narration from that other presentation still included. In 6 years, there's been time to refine the presentation, I'd have thought. Nothing here that is a big deal, certainly, but it's an expensive class and if it were mine, I'd make it cleaner.

    What did I learn that I couldn't have gotten from the books/etc that I mentioned above? Not a ton. I got a nice refresher with some new context and a few new cases described. I wouldn't say that anything here revolutionized my understanding of this material, but then I've studied Branca's book carefully and if I hadn't have done so, this would have been a huge eye opener.

    Is it a good value? That is hard to say. As I mentioned at the outset, I'm starting to teach concealed carry and I don't believe in doing that kind of thing half-assed, so to me it was important to do this class as a credential. I don't know if I'll ever have a student who notices or cares about it, but I care about it. So I would say for me it was worth it. Whether it would make sense for you, I can't say.
    O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts, And men have lost their reason.

  2. #2
    Site Supporter ST911's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Midwest, USA
    As part of the course and certification, is there...

    continuing access to the material after completion
    access to any updates in the future (near or short term) if offered
    further consultation with AB
    an instructor network or internal resource/study group
    access to any additional, instructor-only resources
    discounted materials or discount codes for self or your students

    Also, a question: You said you had studied the book. How did your prior familiarity with the material affect you in the instructor course? I.e. if someone wasn't familiar with LOSD/AB, how much longer might they have taken in the class, would it be more rigorous, etc?

    Thanks.
    الدهون القاع الفتيات لك جعل العالم هزاز جولة الذهاب

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by ST911 View Post
    As part of the course and certification, is there...

    continuing access to the material after completion
    access to any updates in the future (near or short term) if offered
    further consultation with AB
    an instructor network or internal resource/study group
    access to any additional, instructor-only resources
    discounted materials or discount codes for self or your students
    Good questions. Much of that, I don't know for sure, but I'll update if I get any new information. When I finished the test, I was instructed to send an email to LOSD to get my certificate and 'next steps'. It did not specify what the next steps are, so it is possible that there are some resources like you mentioned above available. But I haven't gotten a reply yet. I just sent the email in on Friday, so I wouldn't expect to have gotten a response yet.

    Some specific responses, though: I believe I will retain access to the course material. It's still listed in my account. I have been given a discount code already to buy a few copies of his book cheaply, but that's an offer for a special deal, not an ongoing discount code. The rest of the questions--access to special material, or an instructor network, or what have you, I don't know.

    Also, a question: You said you had studied the book. How did your prior familiarity with the material affect you in the instructor course? I.e. if someone wasn't familiar with LOSD/AB, how much longer might they have taken in the class, would it be more rigorous, etc?
    Short answer: without that background, I would guess that for most people, it would take a fair bit longer and take quite a lot more study/reflection.
    O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts, And men have lost their reason.

  4. #4

    LOSD Instructor Course AAR

    Moylan, thanks for the AAR! I had looked into taking this course about a year ago, but couldn't find any thorough reviews of the course and its content. I did find some endorsements on the LOSD website, and the most worthwhile one I read was from an attorney who wrote that it is a good course for someone who has no formal self defense law training. Your review answered many of my questions, particularly whether the course offered anything more than what is in the LOSD book. I found the book to be quite good. I also reached out to LOSD Customer Service with some questions, such as, could I get a course syllabus before enrolling; which, if any accrediting organization have approved the course; is LOSD aware of any insurance companies that provide liability insurance to graduates who teach the course material. Customer Service did not get back to me until I sent a follow up email. The response I got was that the course is meant for current instructors, i.e., state CCW permit instructors, so they have additional knowledge to answer questions that may come up in a class. CS would not send me a course outline or syllabus, and further stated that the "course does not certify you to teach any specific classes and is not approved by any state governments or accrediting organizations as a certifiable course."

    I felt that the price for the course was too high, but sometimes it goes on sale around certain holidays. The price you mentioned is the lowest I have seen it.

    Looking around the instructors portion of the LOSD website, I saw some FAQs where LOSD mentioned that instructors cannot use the LOSD name, and cannot use the Power Point slides provided by LOSD - it's up to the individual instructors to come up with their own material. My take away is that graduates of the instructor program can say that they are graduates of the instructor program, and that's about it.

    From the advertising material, I thought there would be assignments that would be reviewed and graded, but your review proves otherwise.

    I did see on Amazon, you could purchase state specific Power Points for some states for around $10. I purchased one, and it was nothing more than the state specific material that is in the book.

    Regarding the NC instructor course that you completed, you mentioned it was "massive." Can you give a review on that class, please?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Newbie View Post
    The response I got was that the course is meant for current instructors, i.e., state CCW permit instructors, so they have additional knowledge to answer questions that may come up in a class.
    I would agree that appears to be the basic purpose of the class, and I think (despite your very legitimate points about the class above) that it's pretty good at that. One thing that I realize I left out of the AAR is actually important: the class both gives some solid instruction on how to read court documents (we worked through one case from the VA supreme court, as well as a quick look at the appellate court decision that led to it), and has a module on how to write up quick summary documents of court cases. So there is a kind of light research component to the class. I should have mentioned that. What this means to me is that if you want to do some actual research of your own on case law, you come out of the LOSD instructor course much better prepared to do so. I should have mentioned this, since it is likely the most directly actionable element of the class, and I thought it was well done.

    My take away is that graduates of the instructor program can say that they are graduates of the instructor program, and that's about it.
    So far, that's what I think, too, but I will update if anything changes on that.

    I did see on Amazon, you could purchase state specific Power Points for some states for around $10. I purchased one, and it was nothing more than the state specific material that is in the book.
    I'd actually give a minor warning about LOSD state-specific material, based on my own experience with NC. Branca says he doesn't know of a single state where the current law on defense of others is alter-ego based. Well, in the NC concealed carry instructor material, we were told in no uncertain terms that NC is an alter ego state. Now, I should say that this claim is in the state's course material, but the statutes I have studied didn't say so in so many words. So at this point I'm still a bit in confusion on the point and need to research it for myself. And, see above, I do feel better prepared to take that task on, having taken the class. But to get back to the main point of this paragraph, I'm just saying that Branca said something about NC law that was completely different from what I was taught at the NC DOJ class on NC law.

    Regarding the NC instructor course that you completed, you mentioned it was "massive." Can you give a review on that class, please?
    Attempt at humor. The legal class was the 3 1/2 hour thing I mentioned. The other requirement is the NRA Basic Pistol Instructor cert. That's it. Not a single moment spent, for example, learning how to run a safe firing line. Not a single moment coaching any actual students on marksmanship. No real shooting standard to speak of. It's sad.
    O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts, And men have lost their reason.

  6. #6
    Moylan, thanks for replying.

    Regarding the assignments I referred to, as you indicated in your reply to me, I thought that there would be graded assignments on how to read court documents and prepare legal briefs.

    I did see a section on the LOSD website where graduates of the instructor program are listed. Not sure if the list is up to date.

    Regarding the state specific Power Points I found on Amazon, I believe this if for when Branca lectures in various states on self defense law. Not sure what the content is in his DVDs on specific states. The DVDs are available on the LOSD website and are more expensive than the Power Points I saw on Amazon.

    According to the below link, in NC one can come to the aid of others if s/he reasonably believes that "the conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other's imminent use of unlawful force."
    https://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegisla...S_14-51.3.html

    Now I understand that "massive" was an attempt at humor. LOL

    Thanks again

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Newbie View Post
    According to the below link, in NC one can come to the aid of others if s/he reasonably believes that "the conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other's imminent use of unlawful force."
    https://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegisla...S_14-51.3.html
    Right, that's one of the relevant statutes--it has to do specifically with 'stand your ground' law and with immunity from civil (and criminal) liability when your use of force is justified. However, the NC DOJ material refers not to statutory law but to common law when it says the following:

    "A citizen may intervene and use deadly force in defense of another person when…it appeared reasonably necessary to save the other person from an imminent threat of death, great bodily harm, or sexual assault but only to the extent the other person was entitled to use deadly force in self-defense.” (11 in the red model concealed carry course book)

    So I misspoke a bit last night because I forgot that the DOJ's claim about the alter ego status of our defense of others was based in common law rather than statutory law. Either way, I agree the statutes I've seen make no mention of an alter ego deal. So I need to look to case law to find the basis for the quoted bit above.
    Last edited by Moylan; 07-05-2021 at 07:57 AM.
    O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts, And men have lost their reason.

  8. #8
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Erie County, NY
    Did the course include any material on the jury decision making literature, or was it just specific gun laws? After this, are you proposing to set up shop as pseud0-legal instructor? There are a whole bunch of business, liability, credential, etc. issue involved in that.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Moylan View Post
    Right, that's one of the relevant statutes--it has to do specifically with 'stand your ground' law and with immunity from civil (and criminal) liability when your use of force is justified. However, the NC DOJ material refers not to statutory law but to common law when it says the following:

    "A citizen may intervene and use deadly force in defense of another person when…it appeared reasonably necessary to save the other person from an imminent threat of death, great bodily harm, or sexual assault but only to the extent the other person was entitled to use deadly force in self-defense.” (11 in the red model concealed carry course book)

    So I misspoke a bit last night because I forgot that the DOJ's claim about the alter ego status of our defense of others was based in common law rather than statutory law. Either way, I agree the statutes I've seen make no mention of an alter ego deal. So I need to look to case law to find the basis for the quoted bit above.
    Moylan, I would be very interested to read what you find with respect to alter ego and case law.

  10. #10

    New LoSD Instructor Student Comments

    First, thank you, Moylan, for the AAR.
    I completed the 8 hour DVD LoSD course two years ago (but did not take the extra-cost exam to get a certificate). As a recent new CHCL instructor I had been wondering if I might benefit from the LoSD Instructor class. Your AAR, along with comments from numerous verified graduates at
    https://lawofselfdefense.com/verified-graduates-2/ gave me enough information about the course to decide to take it.
    In particular, comments by several national level instructors I follow on YouTube (John Correia, Stephanie Weidner, and Brian Hill), plus this thread pushed me to pop for the $650 fee.

    I have completed only the first two modules, but can give some feedback here to help others.

    1. Content from my two previous online LoSD courses (Riots & Arson, and Defense of Property) are still accessible on my dashboard, so I assume we all will have ongoing access to the Instructor course content after completion, too.
    2. All of the slides and referenced cases are available for download under the Files section for the course. Branca has two PDF versions of the slide sets, one as full size slides and the other as "printable" 6 slides per page for paper-saving printing.
    3. All of the text on the slides is orange on white, so they are pretty much unreadable if printed on a monochrome laser printer.
    4. During the streaming lectures by Branca the full slide set is available just under the video window, so you can follow along and skim ahead if you wish. That said, I recommend opening the downloaded PDF file and following there as you watch and listen because
    a. Branca does include commentary not found on the slides, and
    b. There are supplemental slides with added good information on the downloaded PDF that Branca does not use in his streaming video.
    5. The Module 13 slides make it clear that graduates are NOT allowed to teach Branca's LoSD class or to call themselves LoSD Instructors. Nor can they use any of his slides or content in their own work. Specifically, two key slides say
    =-=-=
    “What can I call myself?”
    “Law of Self Defense Instructor Program Graduate.”
    “Graduate of the Law of Self Defense Instructor Program.”
    The key is that you will be promoting yourself as teaching your own content, based in part on expertise acquired in the Law of Self Defense Instructor Program.
    You may not promote yourself as teaching “Law of Self Defense” content, as “Law of Self Defense” is our protected trademark.
    - - - - - -
    PDF materials may not be copied or reproduced for distribution to your own students.
    Video lectures may not be played or displayed for purposes other than your personal use—for example, they may no be projected for viewing by others.
    =-=-=-=
    Craig
    VCDL, ACLDN, SAF (Life), GOA, NRA (Benefactor Life), USAF Retired
    https://tinyurl.com/craig-trains

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •