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Thread: Flip and Press

  1. #11
    Here is an article that I wrote on trigger reset. It does not cover flip and press, but that is a term used at Rogers. As I recall the AI's explanation, the shooter would flip the trigger finder forward and then sweep back through the trigger, but truthfully, I didn't quite grasp it as he was explaining it.

    I use the technique as described by Spaulding in the my article, but I know several very successful shooters (GM level) who let the trigger out passed the reset point but maintain contact with the trigger and who then prep the trigger again.
    I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.

  2. #12
    Hammertime
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    Great advice and thread topic. The only thing I can add is that skill can advance a lot when vision becomes the primary focus. We can’t ignore trigger, grip, wrist, stance, etc., but I’m not a fan of trigger-focused techniques like pinning or DA staging.

    @rj, you can follow through visually. Watch the sight lift. And return.
    Truth. The less I think about the trigger the better I seem to shoot.

  3. #13
    I've found simply relaxing the trigger finger will allow the trigger to reset while maintaining contact with the trigger face. So follow through becomes a "relax and prep" (or relax and press) process.

    Locally, "shoot to reset" is a very common issue I have to fix among shooters, even LE firearm instructor candidates. Many will spend more time resetting the trigger than actually pressing it. Surprisingly, many are not familiar with the concept of prepping the trigger after reset.

  4. #14
    Chasing the Horizon RJ's Avatar
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    Jan 2014
    Quote Originally Posted by jlw View Post
    Here is an article that I wrote on trigger reset. It does not cover flip and press, but that is a term used at Rogers. As I recall the AI's explanation, the shooter would flip the trigger finder forward and then sweep back through the trigger, but truthfully, I didn't quite grasp it as he was explaining it.

    I use the technique as described by Spaulding in the my article, but I know several very successful shooters (GM level) who let the trigger out passed the reset point but maintain contact with the trigger and who then prep the trigger again.
    Very useful, thanks jlw.

  5. #15
    Chasing the Horizon RJ's Avatar
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    Jan 2014
    Quote Originally Posted by professor View Post
    FWIW, I shoot GSSF indoor leagues quite often. My scores are almost always 490+ and I’ve shot several 500s.

    I always reset during recoil. I also practice very deliberate 1 second splits for shooting these, using a shot timer and keeping an eye on the splits. In a match it can be difficult not trying to speed up at the 5-7-10 yard strings, but I try to maintain that rhythm during these entire matches. I judge my speed during the match based on time left after my last shot until the stop beep. Trying to make it a 1 hole target at the shorter distances helps. The 1 second splits give me a margin of error to keep me from going over the 15 second par time allowed on the course of fire.

    If you end up with the original course of fire that has a 30 second par time at the 25 yards. Shoot 5 shots. Relax a few seconds and then finish up the last 5.

    Keep at it. It is an excellent competition to judge your progress with.


    The only time I catch myself pinning the trigger during recoil is on far longer distance shots.


    Good luck!!
    Appreciate this post also. Good stuff to think about before my next match. Thanks!

  6. #16
    I am nowhere near the skill level of a lot of shooters here but this is my take. If I am going to pause somewhere in the trigger finger movement when shooting multiple shots, it isn't going to be when the trigger is fully rearward against the frame or adjustment screw. It is going to be after I have taken up the pre-travel. At that point, I will decide if I should pull through sear movement quickly or a bit more slowly depending on size or distance to the target. An IDPA target that needs two to body and one to head is a perfect example. 2 body shots quickly followed by a slower pull for the head shot.

  7. #17
    Chasing the Horizon RJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Quote Originally Posted by professor View Post
    FWIW, I shoot GSSF indoor leagues quite often. My scores are almost always 490+ and I’ve shot several 500s.

    I always reset during recoil. I also practice very deliberate 1 second splits for shooting these, using a shot timer and keeping an eye on the splits. In a match it can be difficult not trying to speed up at the 5-7-10 yard strings, but I try to maintain that rhythm during these entire matches. I judge my speed during the match based on time left after my last shot until the stop beep. Trying to make it a 1 hole target at the shorter distances helps. The 1 second splits give me a margin of error to keep me from going over the 15 second par time allowed on the course of fire.

    If you end up with the original course of fire that has a 30 second par time at the 25 yards. Shoot 5 shots. Relax a few seconds and then finish up the last 5.

    Keep at it. It is an excellent competition to judge your progress with.


    The only time I catch myself pinning the trigger during recoil is on far longer distance shots.


    Good luck!!
    Just wanted to come back to this great post with some notes in prep for my match on Saturday. I shot 20 rounds of match ammo (AE 124) through the G34 yesterday. I had installed a Wolff 4.5 lb striker spring, and wanted to make sure I didn't have any reliability issues (I didn't). The gun feels very crisp naturally, I previously had a 5.0 lb Wolff spring. So the trigger press is fairly easy, relative to the previous setup.

    With that, I shot 5 round "groups" in terms of trying to stay at match speed, which is to say 1/sec. I experimented a bit with pinning the trigger. Whereas when I started the thread I was literally mimicking the timing I'd heard of hold the trigger to the rear, now I wasn't. As I shot the groups, I shortened the amount of time the trigger shoe rested against the back of the guard. By the time I was done, I still was holding the trigger to the rear, but let it go well ahead of and prepped for the next shot before the dot settled onto the target again. By this point I was back on the trigger, slack taken up, waiting to break the shot.

    If I had to estimate actual "time the trigger was held to the rear", through these groups, it would be, in milliseconds (since I'm an engineer):

    Group 1 - 1,000 ms (sight was back on target well before I let go)
    Group 2 - 500 ms (sight was in process of settling when I let go)
    Group 3 - 250 ms (sight had just about come on target)
    Group 4 - 50 ms (I was on the trigger, slack taken up, when the sight came on target)

    So by group 4, I still had the feeling of "pinning the trigger" or "finishing flat" or however you want to call it. This is pretty hard to put into words but I noticed that I felt better about my static accuracy. I think as time goes on and I can increase my hand strength and grip even more, to where I can hold the gun more still, the time I spend in pinning the trigger can be shorter still, but still give me a feeling like I am breaking the shot accurately. So, ultimately I feel like this experiment has led me to be able to shoot faster, but still be accurate. Obviously this all happens very very quickly, and is kinda hard to describe.

    All these shots were taken 2 handed, unsupported. I am pretty sure the sight is centered to the ammo; I've been mentally averaging my group location(s) over time with this gun, making small adjustments to the sight after confirming it originally off a rest. Below is the target after either group 2 or group 4 (can't remember) but the other ones looked similar. This was at 10 yards. I clicked the sight down -6 MOA based on this (I'd clicked it up 4 MOA after the last match, but that was with BB 124) and the AE124. (There's no scale but IIRC this circle pattern is about 6" across.)

    Name:  IMG_9296.jpg
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    I have one more practice session likely for Friday to confirm my mental prep, then will shoot the match Saturday, just like Friday.

    Thanks again @professor for the constructive input!
    Last edited by RJ; 07-06-2021 at 09:05 AM.

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by RJ View Post
    Just wanted to come back to this great post with some notes in prep for my match on Saturday. I shot 20 rounds of match ammo (AE 124) through the G34 yesterday. I had installed a Wolff 4.5 lb striker spring, and wanted to make sure I didn't have any reliability issues (I didn't). The gun feels very crisp naturally, I previously had a 5.0 lb Wolff spring. So the trigger press is fairly easy, relative to the previous setup.

    With that, I shot 5 round "groups" in terms of trying to stay at match speed, which is to say 1/sec. I experimented a bit with pinning the trigger. Whereas when I started the thread I was literally mimicking the timing I'd heard of hold the trigger to the rear, now I wasn't. As I shot the groups, I shortened the amount of time the trigger shoe rested against the back of the guard. By the time I was done, I still was holding the trigger to the rear, but let it go well ahead of and prepped for the next shot before the dot settled onto the target again. By this point I was back on the trigger, slack taken up, waiting to break the shot.

    If I had to estimate actual "time the trigger was held to the rear", through these groups, it would be, in milliseconds (since I'm an engineer):

    Group 1 - 1,000 ms (sight was back on target well before I let go)
    Group 2 - 500 ms (sight was in process of settling when I let go)
    Group 3 - 250 ms (sight had just about come on target)
    Group 4 - 50 ms (I was on the trigger, slack taken up, when the sight came on target)

    So by group 4, I still had the feeling of "pinning the trigger" or "finishing flat" or however you want to call it. This is pretty hard to put into words but I noticed that I felt better about my static accuracy. I think as time goes on and I can increase my hand strength and grip even more, to where I can hold the gun more still, the time I spend in pinning the trigger can be shorter still, but still give me a feeling like I am breaking the shot accurately. So, ultimately I feel like this experiment has led me to be able to shoot faster, but still be accurate. Obviously this all happens very very quickly, and is kinda hard to describe.

    All these shots were taken 2 handed, unsupported. I am pretty sure the sight is centered to the ammo; I've been mentally averaging my group location(s) over time with this gun, making small adjustments to the sight after confirming it originally off a rest. Below is the target after either group 2 or group 4 (can't remember) but the other ones looked similar. This was at 10 yards. I clicked the sight down -6 MOA based on this (I'd clicked it up 4 MOA after the last match, but that was with BB 124) and the AE124. (There's no scale but IIRC this circle pattern is about 6" across.)

    Name:  IMG_9296.jpg
Views: 209
Size:  41.7 KB

    I have one more practice session likely for Friday to confirm my mental prep, then will shoot the match Saturday, just like Friday.

    Thanks again @professor for the constructive input!
    Great progress.

    I worry about your striker spring choice. Keep you eye on it. I’ve seen so many people end up with “light strikes” with Glocks causing a failure to fire. Maybe not with a new spring, but after a while or with substitution of another ammo/primers that are a bit more difficult to light off. For this reason all of my Glocks have stock striker springs. Even the few I have with modified triggers.

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