Avoiding Blue on Blue shooting (also relevant to intervening citizens)

[BehindBlueI's]

In light o the Arvada shooting, I figured I'd repost this:

I've been the only plain clothes officer at an active shooting scene. It's nerve wracking.

It's difficult for many who haven't been involved in a chaotic shooting scene to really know the reality of how limited your information will be and how your own body will fail you. I know that I am very unlikely to heed verbal commands initially because I will likely be in auditory exclusion and simply not hear you. I've mentioned that after my shooting an officer I know grabbed me by the shoulder of my armor to move me as people behind me were moving up armed and I looked at him, simply saw "uniform" and then went back to the bad guy and let him move me. I knew the officer very well, but didn't take the time to process his face as my brain was busy with other things, uniform = good guy = let him move you was all that I dedicated processing power to. Think of this as the "limited processing power rule" and apply that lens to the following:

From training and experience, here's what I would recommend to prevent good guy on good guy shootings:

1) Communicate. Even if you think there is nobody to communicate with, sound off. "STOP ATTACKING THE OFFICER!" or "DROP YOUR GUN!" or whatever. There are always more 'ear witnesses' then 'eye witnesses' and sounding like a good guy will help people assume you are the good guy.

2) Put your gun away as soon as possible. ESPECIALLY long guns. Don't worry about disarming the downed bad guy. Don't even approach him, especially alone. People do this probably thinking it is safer to get it away from him. Even rookie (and sometimes not so rookie) cops get caught up in that. Leave it. Remain behind cover and watch the bad guy, no need to approach and remove the gun. If he gets back on the gun, you know he's a threat again.

3) Nobody gets shot rendering aid. If you are applying pressure to a wound and yelling for help, you are visually and audibly not a threat and "field expedient medics" will instantly be assumed "good guy" by the limited processing power rule.

4) If response is delayed and there is time, call 911 yourself. ID yourself. Now is the time to think about your wording. Do not call and say "I shot someone" and hang up. I've honest to God heard of a trainer who was telling people to call 911 and say "there's been a shooting" then hang up. That's so retarded it should be criminal to teach it to people and I can know immediately that well-meaning idiot has no experience in this realm and doesn't know what he doesn't know.

Something like "I shot someone attacking your officer at (location). The suspect is (down/fled north/whatever). I am an off duty officer (if applicable) with XXPD. I am (physical description) wearing (clothing) and will meet your officers at (location) and make myself known. My gun is (holstered/in my car/at my feet/whatever *BUT NOT IN YOUR HANDS*). Provide suspect description if suspect is still out, including last known direction of travel. Give an estimate of number of casualties and severity so EMS can be started, if applicable. If possible, have the phone on speaker and in a shirt pocket or the like once you can hear sirens. Nothing in your hands is preferable. DO NOT ASSUME THE OFFICERS KNOW WHAT YOU TOLD DISPATCH. This is a literal game of telephone, the dispatcher can mix things up, the radio may be so tied up information hasn't went out yet, an individual officer may not have heard that piece of traffic as he concentrated on negotiating a crowded intersection of oblivious idiot drivers, ec.

5) Follow instructions of uniformed officers. Now is not the time to talk or explain, it's the time to listen. This is drilled into us. It doesn't matter if you're a 20 year supervisor and the first uniformed officer is a kid 6 weeks out of the academy. He's in charge until you're detained and vetted.

[Snapshot]

Not my lane and hopefully will not be my experience but "GUN NOT IN HAND" and perhaps even "HANDS CLEARLY VISIBLE AND EMPTY" seems like very good advise for anyone not responding in a recognized uniform, particularly if it involves shooting or even reports of shooting.

[blues]

Good stuff, BBI.

Years ago I was on a UC assignment where I was protecting a source who was supposed to be met by someone in Hartford, CT who had allegedly threatened him.

I accompanied him to the men's room where I stood at a urinal with something other than my dangling part in my hand.

A couple moments later a few guys burst in with guns out and I thought they were there to assassinate the source. With them pointing at me and me pointing at their leader, it was amazing that nobody got shot before they finally remembered to announce they were Hartford P.D.

I had to be restrained from physically assaulting their sergeant who made light of the situation in the immediate aftermath. I was not a happy camper about his trivializing their failure to identify themselves as they burst in the door.

(Turned out the source had set it up by playing both sides against one another for whatever deviant reasons of his own he harbored. He nearly got the bloodshed he sought.)

Take nothing for granted. Nobody knows who the damned good guys are in some scenarios.

[Utm]

On the PD side, I'd recommend the visiblue hi vis beanie to throw on. I have no affiliation with them or anything but throwing that on post shooting while off duty or plain clothes could be very helpful to prevent blue on blue

[Coyotesfan97]

Reference BBI’s post point #4 I don’t know how many times I’ve heard the victim and suspect descriptions flipped. Just another thing to ponder when in that situation.

[JohnO]

Good stuff, BBI.

Years ago I was on a UC assignment where I was protecting a source who was supposed to be met by someone in Hartford, CT who had allegedly threatened him.

I accompanied him to the men's room where I stood at a urinal with something other than my dangling part in my hand.

A couple moments later a few guys burst in with guns out and I thought they were there to assassinate the source. With them pointing at me and me pointing at their leader, it was amazing that nobody got shot before they finally remembered to announce they were Hartford P.D.

I had to be restrained from physically assaulting their sergeant who made light of the situation in the immediate aftermath. I was not a happy camper about his trivializing their failure to identify themselves as they burst in the door.

(Turned out the source had set it up by playing both sides against one another for whatever deviant reasons of his own he harbored. He nearly got the bloodshed he sought.)

Take nothing for granted. Nobody knows who the damned good guys are in some scenarios.

Note to self: Stay out of men's rooms in Hartford! Just hold it. (No pun intended.)

[BehindBlueI's]

Reference BBI’s post point #4 I don’t know how many times I’ve heard the victim and suspect descriptions flipped. Just another thing to ponder when in that situation.

Yup. I've heard that radio traffic. Control, is that the *suspect* or the *victim*'s description?

When I was a detective, I would get on that district's channel and give my description directly to them. I'm checking this robbery alarm, I'm (unit number) and I'm (description). Control, please broadcast that a plain clothes officer is marking on the scene.

[BobM]

Reference BBI’s post point #4 I don’t know how many times I’ve heard the victim and suspect descriptions flipped. Just another thing to ponder when in that situation.

Same here. Around here I’d be afraid of a certain agency’s dispatch mixing up the descriptions.

[PD Sgt.]

I think I have mentioned this before in other threads, but when I used to train new detectives I would tell them that guys they worked with for years in uniform will likely not recognize them if they are somewhere with a gun in their hand (coffee maybe, pistol, no).

Just like BBI said, no matter how long you have been on, no matter how much you think everyone knows you, it doesn’t matter and you are not in charge. Air/call in with who you are and your description if you can, and fully expect to be put on the ground and in irons (at best) until it is sorted out to their satisfaction.

[MickAK]

Yup. I've heard that radio traffic. Control, is that the *suspect* or the *victim*'s description?

When I was a detective, I would get on that district's channel and give my description directly to them. I'm checking this robbery alarm, I'm (unit number) and I'm (description). Control, please broadcast that a plain clothes officer is marking on the scene.

First, thanks for making the thread, it's a subject I don't have a very good plan for, not sure there is one but your information helps.

I live caddy corner to an elementary school. Current plan is to go in with my trauma bag and my sling bag to render aid if I go in at all. I have a yellow safety vest I go back and forth on whether it would be a good idea to wear.

In your experience would having hi-vis clothing I can describe to the dispatcher be helpful or more likely to get me confused with the assailant than sticking to normal clothing?