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Thread: Avoiding Blue on Blue shooting (also relevant to intervening citizens)

  1. #11
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MickAK View Post
    First, thanks for making the thread, it's a subject I don't have a very good plan for, not sure there is one but your information helps.

    I live caddy corner to an elementary school. Current plan is to go in with my trauma bag and my sling bag to render aid if I go in at all. I have a yellow safety vest I go back and forth on whether it would be a good idea to wear.

    In your experience would having hi-vis clothing I can describe to the dispatcher be helpful or more likely to get me confused with the assailant than sticking to normal clothing?

    I think hi viz would be good. The common assumption would be bad actors would not want to be highly visible, after all. Maybe even one with "volunteer " on the back, another position association. " ...a volunteer medic on scene wearing..." wording if you call it in
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  2. #12
    Good stuff to think about and way too many stories of citizens and LEO’s being shot due to fog of war.

    For me, I try to mitigate my plain clothes work with these:
    1) Always wear an undershirt that has POLICE in large letters on all four sides. Currently I prefer the 13 Fifty brand. My mental checklist includes ditching my outer shirt as soon as practicable.

    2) I keep the DSM banner in each of my cars and sometimes backpacks.

    3) I keep soft armor with ID placards within arms reach of the drivers seat.

    4) I put these on my duty long guns.
    https://www.arcustoms.com/police-pvc...ny-rail-cover/

    5) I keep a ball cap with POLICE on it in the center console.

    Obviously none of this makes me immune to friendly fire and situational awareness is a life saver.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobM View Post
    Same here. Around here I’d be afraid of a certain agency’s dispatch mixing up the descriptions.
    Not just dispatch...I've heard officers after a description being given out at least a dozen times of "white male, white t-shirt, blue jeans", ask "Was that a black female in a red dress?". Some people I worked with, I was amazed that they had the cognitive ability to actually dress and drive themselves to work each day.

  4. #14
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    I teach a lot of this in my Civilian Response to Active Shooters course. I am not surprised, but very disgruntled that this is not CCW101 stuff. Also, all the more reason not to carry Gran'pappy's smuggled home war souvenir pistol as an EDC CCW piece, if you are not willing to eject it onto the pavement when necessary.

    And to paraphrase the other thread, once the bad man is down, retreat to a point of cover, if you want to keep eyes on him. Nothing says you have to. Unass the area to a safer (around a hardened corner, not your barcolounger) place. Be one of the eleventyone callers for the scene, and meet the officers. Do not stand over the bad man, holding him for the cops. Leave his blaster where it lie. Have nothing in your hands when the cops roll up. (Unless) It seems kinda goofy, but I actually like @Mas' old beacon technique with a badge (LEO, not stupid CCW shield) over your head, rotating to show it off. It is just different enough behavior to (maybe) register in the mind of a stressed out responding cop. (Side note: I have run a small department through a shoothouse on an in-service decisional shooting course. Targets had weapons, badges in the hand, on the belt, and on a neck chain. Responding officers were briefed identically from a cue card. Some analized everything the way they should, others, until given remedial, lit up everything in their path.)

    The practitioners here take it as a pat on the back when they are told they shoot better than the average cop. I wonder if they remember that it is a bell curve, and the first responding cop they draw in the lottery may be well below average. On shooting ability, on decision making, on scene management...

    pat

  5. #15
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    As I have mentioned before: I don`t know shit about policing in the USA. But this is a real problem detectives (and other plainclothes officers) face all around the world. So maybe this information can be helpfull over there.

    Some years ago (when the german public was on high alert because of the terrorism threat) we had two of our detectives outside investigating a crime scene. Both were in plainclothes, but carried their handguns open, assuming that they would be recognized as police officers. A citizen saw them, imediately called dispatch and told them there were armed people running around in the street. Our detectives had left their radio in the car, so they only learned about this, as suddenly a bunch of patrol officers with MP5s arrived to confront the "terrorists".
    Luckily everyone kept cool and nothing further happened...

    In another case I was contacted by a very nervous civilian, who told me there was a gun toting guy standing in the street. I went there to investigate, only to find out it was another police officer in plainclothes, who was just arresting a suspect.
    That officer did an excellent job in identifying himself. He had a big "POLIZEI" sign on him and a partner (also marked) was standing next to him in ordner to calm down people. Yet the civilian saw a gun and just got mad...

    So when I`m out there doing investigations I allways:

    - conceal my gun as good a possible
    - listen to the radio in case someone reports me as an "armed suspect"
    - tell dispatch where I go before I get out of the car
    - have my police ID and "badge" (Kriminaldienstmarke) ready in a separate pockert so I can get it out imediately if I`m confronted by other officers
    - get on my body-amor with "POLIZEI" sign on it, if I report to a chaotic scene
    - imediately contact uniformed officers who I am, as soon as I reach the crime scene
    If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.

  6. #16
    Site Supporter HeavyDuty's Avatar
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    Former semi sworn drone here. My agency insisted on us wearing consistent clothing for quick identification when we were on scene which helped us stay unventilated. But I find it humorous that the basic CCW “sash” concept that was derided by so many (including me) just a few years ago has been adopted by LE to reduce BonB.
    Ken

    BBI: ...”you better not forget the safe word because shit's about to get weird”...
    revchuck38: ...”mo' ammo is mo' betta' unless you're swimming or on fire.”

  7. #17
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    Cognitive overload

    “Some people I worked with, I was amazed that they had the cognitive ability to actually dress and drive themselves to work each day”

    Many people are fine dealing with normal day life or even low level challenges, but lock up in a real crisis. That’s often because they are unprepared but I have come to believe that some people just can’t handle the unexpected, no matter how much training they get. Unfortunately, sometimes those people become the police.

  8. #18
    banana republican blues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff22 View Post
    “Some people I worked with, I was amazed that they had the cognitive ability to actually dress and drive themselves to work each day”

    Many people are fine dealing with normal day life or even low level challenges, but lock up in a real crisis. That’s often because they are unprepared but I have come to believe that some people just can’t handle the unexpected, no matter how much training they get. Unfortunately, sometimes those people become the police.
    I think it tends to be something in our internal wiring. For me, when bad things happen, things tend to slow down and I generally crack a joke to keep things loose while gaining control of the situation.

    I had a long discussion at a FLETC undercover school with some psych profiler from the Bureau about whether good undercovers are born rather than created. He, privately, agreed with me but would not say so in class. That said, any skill set can be enhanced with training. But I honestly believe you either have the gene or you don't.

    I think the citizen soldiers of WWII demonstrated such time and again in the tales of bravery by the conscripted. (Not to the exclusion of the bravery of all our military men and women in any conflict.)
    There's nothing civil about this war.

    Read: Harrison Bergeron

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff22 View Post
    “Some people I worked with, I was amazed that they had the cognitive ability to actually dress and drive themselves to work each day”

    Many people are fine dealing with normal day life or even low level challenges, but lock up in a real crisis. That’s often because they are unprepared but I have come to believe that some people just can’t handle the unexpected, no matter how much training they get. Unfortunately, sometimes those people become the police.
    The ones I was referring to were idiots in dealing with even low level challenges...the instances of repeated misunderstood BOLO's were on mere shoplifting, gas drive-off, or just "suspicious person" calls.

  10. #20
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    As skills instructors or field training officers, sometimes we think “I can train anybody” but the reality is, we cannot. Some people just can’t do certain things.

    I couldn’t do surgery, race a Grand Prix car or land a plane on an aircraft carrier, no matter how much training I had.

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