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Thread: Arvada Shooting Mess

  1. #11
    Member olstyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trooper224 View Post
    Absolutely DO NOT kick weapons away or any other Hollywood highjinks. You don't know the mechanical condition of those weapons.
    This is a good point - you of course don't want them going off. That said, in "exception to every rule" style, does this admonition apply if you're less than 100% certain that the bad guy is down permanently but you don't believe that further shooting is justified?

  2. #12
    Site Supporter Trooper224's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by olstyn View Post
    This is a good point - you of course don't want them going off. That said, in "exception to every rule" style, does this admonition apply if you're less than 100% certain that the bad guy is down permanently but you don't believe that further shooting is justified?
    You can parse the situation with "what if" all day long without reaching a conclusion. If you're " less than 100% certain that the bad guy is down permanently " why are you making an approach and handling weapons in the first place? If you're not LE don't try to think like one. You're right in the middle of one of the most defining moments of your life, you don't need to complicate it any further by trying to be everything to everyone. If the shooter is down and no longer active your part in the process is finished. Holster your weapon, find a seat and look like the Joe Citizen you are.
    We may lose and we may win, but we will never be here again.......

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by olstyn View Post
    This is a good point - you of course don't want them going off. That said, in "exception to every rule" style, does this admonition apply if you're less than 100% certain that the bad guy is down permanently but you don't believe that further shooting is justified?
    If I’m less than 109% than 100% certain the bad guy is down permanently then why would further shooting NOT be justified ?

    Gun in hand is gun in use - You don’t need to be able to get up and dance a jig to be a threat with a gun in hand. It is vey much justifiable/ articulatable.

    Too much cultural/TV/movie bullshit of “good guys don’t do that.”

    As BBI posted in the other thread on this:

    2) Put your gun away as soon as possible. ESPECIALLY long guns. Don't worry about disarming the downed bad guy. Don't even approach him, especially alone. People do this probably thinking it is safer to get it away from him. Even rookie (and sometimes not so rookie) cops get caught up in that. Leave it. Remain behind cover and watch the bad guy, no need to approach and remove the gun. If he gets back on the gun, you know he's a threat again.
    Along those lines, as I mentioned in the Shootings in the news thread a friend and former co-worker of mine was killed while responding to a shooting call in plainclothes with a long gun. Blue on blue shootings are not a novel problem.

    https://www.odmp.org/officer/20777-p...ey-j-breitkopf
    Last edited by HCM; 06-26-2021 at 11:39 AM.

  4. #14
    Site Supporter Oldherkpilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trooper224 View Post
    If you ever find yourself in that situation, you've already done more than your share. Don't turn into Safety Sally in the aftermath. Holster your weapon and appear as unthreatening as possible. DO NOT handle the shooters weapon/weapons. Not only can this be your ultimate outcome, but you're also handling evidence and disturbing a crime scene. Absolutely DO NOT kick weapons away or any other Hollywood highjinks. You don't know the mechanical condition of those weapons. The media and the Chipotle Crew have done an outstanding job of convincing everyone that anyone on scene with a rifle is someone up to no good, this includes responding LE. If you're standing there holding a long gun, that's likely to be a trigger for responding units that may very well end up like this tragic story.
    So cuffing oneself to a park bench would be the smart move?

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Trooper224 View Post
    If the shooter is down and no longer active your part in the process is finished. Holster your weapon, find a seat and look like the Joe Citizen you are.
    Right.
    Is holstering preferred over grounding my gun and stepping away to look fat, dumb, and happy?
    Code Name: JET STREAM

  6. #16
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Cross posting, since I know not everyone looks at the LE subforum:

    In light o the Arvada shooting, I figured I'd repost this:

    I've been the only plain clothes officer at an active shooting scene. It's nerve wracking.

    It's difficult for many who haven't been involved in a chaotic shooting scene to really know the reality of how limited your information will be and how your own body will fail you. I know that I am very unlikely to heed verbal commands initially because I will likely be in auditory exclusion and simply not hear you. I've mentioned that after my shooting an officer I know grabbed me by the shoulder of my armor to move me as people behind me were moving up armed and I looked at him, simply saw "uniform" and then went back to the bad guy and let him move me. I knew the officer very well, but didn't take the time to process his face as my brain was busy with other things, uniform = good guy = let him move you was all that I dedicated processing power to. Think of this as the "limited processing power rule" and apply that lens to the following:

    From training and experience, here's what I would recommend to prevent good guy on good guy shootings:

    1) Communicate. Even if you think there is nobody to communicate with, sound off. "STOP ATTACKING THE OFFICER!" or "DROP YOUR GUN!" or whatever. There are always more 'ear witnesses' then 'eye witnesses' and sounding like a good guy will help people assume you are the good guy.

    2) Put your gun away as soon as possible. ESPECIALLY long guns. Don't worry about disarming the downed bad guy. Don't even approach him, especially alone. People do this probably thinking it is safer to get it away from him. Even rookie (and sometimes not so rookie) cops get caught up in that. Leave it. Remain behind cover and watch the bad guy, no need to approach and remove the gun. If he gets back on the gun, you know he's a threat again.

    3) Nobody gets shot rendering aid. If you are applying pressure to a wound and yelling for help, you are visually and audibly not a threat and "field expedient medics" will instantly be assumed "good guy" by the limited processing power rule.

    4) If response is delayed and there is time, call 911 yourself. ID yourself. Now is the time to think about your wording. Do not call and say "I shot someone" and hang up. I've honest to God heard of a trainer who was telling people to call 911 and say "there's been a shooting" then hang up. That's so retarded it should be criminal to teach it to people and I can know immediately that well-meaning idiot has no experience in this realm and doesn't know what he doesn't know.

    Something like "I shot someone attacking your officer at (location). The suspect is (down/fled north/whatever). I am an off duty officer (if applicable) with XXPD. I am (physical description) wearing (clothing) and will meet your officers at (location) and make myself known. My gun is (holstered/in my car/at my feet/whatever *BUT NOT IN YOUR HANDS*). Provide suspect description if suspect is still out, including last known direction of travel. Give an estimate of number of casualties and severity so EMS can be started, if applicable. If possible, have the phone on speaker and in a shirt pocket or the like once you can hear sirens. Nothing in your hands is preferable. DO NOT ASSUME THE OFFICERS KNOW WHAT YOU TOLD DISPATCH. This is a literal game of telephone, the dispatcher can mix things up, the radio may be so tied up information hasn't went out yet, an individual officer may not have heard that piece of traffic as he concentrated on negotiating a crowded intersection of oblivious idiot drivers, ec.

    5) Follow instructions of uniformed officers. Now is not the time to talk or explain, it's the time to listen. This is drilled into us. It doesn't matter if you're a 20 year supervisor and the first uniformed officer is a kid 6 weeks out of the academy. He's in charge until you're detained and vetted.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  7. #17
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
    Right.
    Is holstering preferred over grounding my gun and stepping away to look fat, dumb, and happy?
    It depends. If you are in a stampede of humanity or are surrounded by the Looky-Lou squad, if you ground your gun it may disappear. I've seen that happen, even off corpses, in certain neighborhoods.

    We had a guy shoot a pawn shop robber, then field strip his gun and set it on the counter before police arrived. We've had guys holster up. We've had guys take it to their car and lock it in the trunk (this will, most likely, result in your car being the subject of a search warrant if the bad guy dies, maybe just a consent search if he doesn't just as an FYI), etc.

    The most important thing is not in your hand and FFS don't reach for it. I've seen so many people reach for it when asked "do you have a gun?" or the like because in their mind they want to show it and be helpful. Don't. It's common enough we're now trained to say "without reaching for it, do you have any weapons on you" and people *still* do it.
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  8. #18
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trooper224 View Post
    You can parse the situation with "what if" all day long without reaching a conclusion. If you're " less than 100% certain that the bad guy is down permanently " why are you making an approach and handling weapons in the first place? If you're not LE don't try to think like one. You're right in the middle of one of the most defining moments of your life, you don't need to complicate it any further by trying to be everything to everyone. If the shooter is down and no longer active your part in the process is finished. Holster your weapon, find a seat and look like the Joe Citizen you are.
    As I said on another forum, EMS isn't going up until the cops say it's ok to. Fire isn't. A single cop is almost certainly trained to not to until he's got a couple buddies and tactics are arranged to do so. If those folks aren't going to approach, why are you?

    The answer is, of course, Hollywood. Like old west duels, it's a frequent trope but shouldn't be confused with reality.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Trooper224 View Post
    If you're standing there holding a long gun, that's likely to be a trigger for responding units that may very well end up like this tragic story.
    And in this busy shopping area with presumably lots of people making 911 calls they were responding to an officer just being shot by a shooter with a rifle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Suvorov View Post
    Paul Howe has long advised against responding with a carbine for this very reason.
    I keep a rifle in a state of readiness in the safe, but I would not expect to ever actually be using it unless the situation has degraded to the point where police probably are not going to be responding anytime soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by GyroF-16 View Post
    Wow- sounds like he’d either been in a similar situation previously, or at least had a plan for it.
    This interview is pretty good (I know Garand Thumb might not be that popular here, but it is a good interview). This link starts where he was explaining his logic and method, including why he didn't utilize the long guns:
    https://youtu.be/IXoGzJZw4Z4?t=1589

  10. #20
    Site Supporter Trooper224's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
    Right.
    Is holstering preferred over grounding my gun and stepping away to look fat, dumb, and happy?
    I prefer holstering, rather than having one more unsecured weapon at a scene.
    We may lose and we may win, but we will never be here again.......

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