Talk me off the ledge, please (P320/P365/Glock content)

[Sig_Fiend]

It’s really interesting that there seems to be a tribal hard on here for SIG, (saying that at the risk of being flamed by the tribe). How many brand new pistol designs stumbled out of the gate, had inherent flaws, were corrected and are popular quality products today?

That may seem to be the case, but I can assure you it is not. Of all the forums out there that may dump on the P320 platform, PF is one of the most reasonable and logical about it. Most of us here only care about the facts at the end of the day. You have many highly experienced end users with the platform here, including on the LE agency side. Some of them have even posted in this thread with pictures of particular problem areas with the platform. There are several other lengthy threads with dozens of users detailing many other issues from personal and/or agency experience (e.g. much larger than an N of 1 sample size). These concerns are not without merit. The shenanigans the company has historically pulled in regards to some of those issues, while not unique to that company alone, are certainly cause for raising an eyebrow.

On the subject of Glock Timney triggers, I caution people against casually recommending those for guns whose purpose may end up as a defensive or carry gun. I'll just say flat out, they are a no-go for any defensive use. In essence, it adds a P320-level problem or two to the Glock. The Timney sear is a bit like the P320 sear in that it is entirely unrestricted in movement, save for the coil spring underneath it. Theoretically the inertia from a drop might be enough to cause the sear to bounce. Furthermore, you now have a fully cocked striker and only a millimeter or so of sear engagement. Yes, you should still have the function of the factory drop safety ledge and firing pin safety. However, you should really take a step back and ask what exactly you think you are gaining. I submit to you, if a factory 4.5 connector and a 6# trigger return spring or NY1 spring won't do it for you, the trigger isn't the problem. Not to mention, if you like the SCD... well the Timney trigger results in a fully cocked striker... so that kind of defeats the purpose.

[medmo]

That may seem to be the case, but I can assure you it is not. Of all the forums out there that may dump on the P320 platform, PF is one of the most reasonable and logical about it. Most of us here only care about the facts at the end of the day. You have many highly experienced end users with the platform here, including on the LE agency side. Some of them have even posted in this thread with pictures of particular problem areas with the platform. There are several other lengthy threads with dozens of users detailing many other issues from personal and/or agency experience (e.g. much larger than an N of 1 sample size). These concerns are not without merit. The shenanigans the company has historically pulled in regards to some of those issues, while not unique to that company alone, are certainly cause for raising an eyebrow.

On the subject of Glock Timney triggers, I caution people against casually recommending those for guns whose purpose may end up as a defensive or carry gun. I'll just say flat out, they are a no-go for any defensive use. In essence, it adds a P320-level problem or two to the Glock. The Timney sear is a bit like the P320 sear in that it is entirely unrestricted in movement, save for the coil spring underneath it. Theoretically the inertia from a drop might be enough to cause the sear to bounce. Furthermore, you now have a fully cocked striker and only a millimeter or so of sear engagement. Yes, you should still have the function of the factory drop safety ledge and firing pin safety. However, you should really take a step back and ask what exactly you think you are gaining. I submit to you, if a factory 4.5 connector and a 6# trigger return spring or NY1 spring won't do it for you, the trigger isn't the problem. Not to mention, if you like the SCD... well the Timney trigger results in a fully cocked striker... so that kind of defeats the purpose.

I fit into the highly experienced end user, only caring about the facts crowd and still stand by my comment. I agree, the concerns aren’t without merit and aren’t unique to SIG. Most of us here, including myself, have a pistol in their holster right now that when initially introduced had eyebrow raising concerns associated with them.

[BWT]

I’d agree with the caution towards the Timney trigger. I recommended it (again not hard enough) in the context of a range gun only. He mentioned potentially use Sig’s for range use only and potentially keeping Glocks. Something he also liked was their triggers. 320’s are heavily scrutinized for being “really drop safe” and I’d put the Timney trigger in the same category except - they don’t even claim to be drop safe.

Also, there’s this video in a cutaway Glock that further illustrates the concern.

https://youtu.be/Sx-nQQrKI80

Now with that disclaimer / acknowledgement out of the way. I’d say consider it for range use as a parallel for the Sigs for range use. $150 is nothing when you have tons of magazines, guns, holsters, mag carriers, sights, various other accessories I’m forgetting (SCD’s - actually).

I dunno. I get it. I have these same thoughts from time to time. I found myself considering a Timney until I saw that video and also saw where the Timney can’t be used with a SCD. So it’s not drop safe (as far as I can tell), but I’ve shot an X5 Legion that was my father’s and I’ll tell you I’d be *shocked* if that thing was ever considered drop safe.

I like the performance of some of the Sig guns, I just don’t think they’re up to snuff. Which is a real shame - they show potential. I also just am not going to AIWB something without a SCD type device. I figure I’ll just buy a RDS because apparently I’m learning I don’t know what I’m doing with traditional sights, etc. (https://youtu.be/u9AYcRox-Ts). I think that’ll yield more break throughs than a trigger.

Anyway I’m rambling. I look forward to what you report back Heavy Duty. Give it some time and let the rush / excitement pass. Then consider it again. I impulse bought a Mossberg 590 recently during the panic and I slightly regret it not being a 590A1. I’m just trying to help.

ETA: I liked the X5 quite a bit by the way as a side note. I just am like Heavy Duty and I have about 30-40-ish Glock 17 and also near that in Glock 19 magazines, and holsters… and sights… those magazines retail for like $20-25 now? I did some quick math and hit $4,000 quickly.

$150 for a Timney trigger for range fun doesn’t seem as bad to maybe keep you from spending thousands.

[Hot Sauce]

I’d agree with the caution towards the Timney trigger. I recommended it (again not hard enough) in the context of a range gun only. He mentioned potentially use Sig’s for range use only and potentially keeping Glocks. Something he also liked was their triggers. 320’s are heavily scrutinized for being “really drop safe” and I’d put the Timney trigger in the same category except - they don’t even claim to be drop safe.

I get that you're not saying that it's for defensive use, but eventually, like a game of telephone, that recommendation will trickle down to someone without the context that it's range only or why.

People will always do dumb stuff, as long as there are people. But neither we as knowledgeable end users, nor manufacturers like Timney, ought to participate in enabling that.

I know someone's gonna jump in and say there are plenty of pre-cocked striker guns out there being sold. They were designed at the outset to be that way. The safety of the Glock system works together with all of it's elements, including drop safeties, pre-cocking, length of travel, etc. Significantly screwing with and/or almost wholesale removing a whole element just doesn't strike me as the greatest idea.

Eventually some company will come out with a Glock trigger light and short enough to be set off by blowing on it, and someone out there will still find it too hard to use.

[BWT]

I get that you're not saying that it's for defensive use, but eventually, like a game of telephone, that recommendation will trickle down to someone without the context that it's range only or why.

People will always do dumb stuff, as long as there are people. But neither we as knowledgeable end users, nor manufacturers like Timney, ought to participate in enabling that.

I know someone's gonna jump in and say there are plenty of pre-cocked striker guns out there being sold. They were designed at the outset to be that way. The safety of the Glock system works together with all of it's elements, including drop safeties, pre-cocking, length of travel, etc. Significantly screwing with and/or almost wholesale removing a whole element just doesn't strike me as the greatest idea.

Eventually some company will come out with a Glock trigger light and short enough to be set off by blowing on it, and someone out there will still find it too hard to use.

So, by extension you’d never buy the tungsten infused light trigger Sig, right?

Practically it was *never* intended to be a carry gun. I’m just saying one could also use that same logic towards a Glock 34.

I happen to EDC a Glock 34. But that’s not common.

ETA: I’ll say this and then I think this will be sufficiently beaten.

I offered the Timney as something that may give a stay on a decision that he may regret down the road (he tongue-in-cheek explained that in the title of the thread), hence I’m like “Here try this out, see what you think, and if the decision still seems good to go to a different platform after enough time. Do it.”

I bought a PSA AK103 Klone like that. I have an Arsenal SGL21, which has become a collectors item due to its Russian lineage (Thanks Obama). But I like owning guns I can shoot and not worry about. So, I didn’t want to sell it, but I don’t really get excited about the idea of further devaluing it.

So, I kind of regretted not having two back when they cost around what a AK103 Klone cost. I kind of resolved to buy one if I got the chance.

I went into PSA and they had them in store. I even said to the guy at the counter “You have no idea how close I am to impulse buying this”. But I remembered the 590 and Dave Ramsey “No good deal is too good to sleep on” - I was pretty exhausted from some work stuff. I went home with my son, and we hung out did our normal stuff. Put him down for a nap - slept too. Woke up, thought it over and it’s still something I wanted to do. So I bought it. No regrets at all to this day - I look forward to shooting it (when ammo’s reasonable again) and handling it, etc. making tons of memories with the kids. I’ll restore the SGL21 to factory conditions and probably not use it again. Which sucks, but it is what it is. My Dad gave me a Mosin Nagant which has now quadrupled in value for the same reason.

He just didn’t want an $80 rifle that big in his safe and offered it. I have a bigger safe and that was it.

[Sig_Fiend]

I get that you're not saying that it's for defensive use, but eventually, like a game of telephone, that recommendation will trickle down to someone without the context that it's range only or why.

People will always do dumb stuff, as long as there are people. But neither we as knowledgeable end users, nor manufacturers like Timney, ought to participate in enabling that.

I know someone's gonna jump in and say there are plenty of pre-cocked striker guns out there being sold. They were designed at the outset to be that way. The safety of the Glock system works together with all of it's elements, including drop safeties, pre-cocking, length of travel, etc. Significantly screwing with and/or almost wholesale removing a whole element just doesn't strike me as the greatest idea.

Eventually some company will come out with a Glock trigger light and short enough to be set off by blowing on it, and someone out there will still find it too hard to use.

Agreed. The majority of the thread, including the first post, was explicitly focused on defensive gun use. Best not to even bring competition trigger stuff in to a thread like this vs. say a thread in the Competition or Marksmanship sections of the forum. Too many people, unfortunately, will scan a thread like this and certain words will stand out like:

• defensive gun
• glock
• timney trigger
• like a p320 trigger

Then they might go to modding their defensive gun with a trigger like that and possibly have an ND.

[HeavyDuty]

Agreed. The majority of the thread, including the first post, was explicitly focused on defensive gun use. Best not to even bring competition trigger stuff in to a thread like this vs. say a thread in the Competition or Marksmanship sections of the forum. Too many people, unfortunately, will scan a thread like this and certain words will stand out like:

• defensive gun
• glock
• timney trigger
• like a p320 trigger

Then they might go to modding their defensive gun with a trigger like that and possibly have an ND.

We have a saying in the insurance industry that applies to that situation - “stupid people die in stupid ways.” Given the derp I’ve seen posted on other forums over the years, I definitely see that happening with a few people.

[Hot Sauce]

Agreed. The majority of the thread, including the first post, was explicitly focused on defensive gun use. Best not to even bring competition trigger stuff in to a thread like this vs. say a thread in the Competition or Marksmanship sections of the forum. Too many people, unfortunately, will scan a thread like this and certain words will stand out like:

• defensive gun
• glock
• timney trigger
• like a p320 trigger

Then they might go to modding their defensive gun with a trigger like that and possibly have an ND.

The tendency of some to skim threads as you described is precisely why I felt compelled to comment.

People have often pointed to the PPQ as the perfect striker trigger. And despite having a crisper break, it's total length of travel is not shorter than a Glock and it's weight is right at 5-5.5 lbs.

That's called a clue.

I generally don't begrudge people who play a bit with their trigger weight or take up, but pushing the envelope on that to extremes is a fun mechanical experiment only, not a good idea for carry.

[JAH 3rd]

Just wondering how you and the ledge are doing. Have you came to any decisions regarding a new pistol? Any new thoughts on a pistol....narrowed down anything? Thanks!

[HeavyDuty]

Just wondering how you and the ledge are doing. Have you came to any decisions regarding a new pistol? Any new thoughts on a pistol....narrowed down anything? Thanks!

Nah. I’m going to stick with Glock for defensive uses at least in the short and mid term. I’m enjoying the new P320 for target use, and I may keep an eye out for a deal on a P365 to try. But I don’t have a burning urge to start shifting.