No different in the world of technology. Everyone has to justify their budget, title and salary.Originally Posted by David Armstrong
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2
No different in the world of technology. Everyone has to justify their budget, title and salary.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2
Fairness leads to extinction much faster than harsh parameters.
Intellectually I understand this. Emotionally, it feels like it matters a ton. I'm stuck in a bit of "analysis paralysis" right now. I think it feels like a big deal because I view it (choosing and consolidating on a platform) as a long-term decision, and making that decision poorly means one of two things; 1.) being stuck with a "mistake" for the long haul, or 2.) Starting over and all that entails.
I had an M&P 9c that I liked a lot. Only two things I liked about my brothers G19 better. Mag changes were faster for me on the 19 because I never pinched the part of my palm that hangs over and it and the 19 required less grip adjustment when changing and second, his G17 was far more accurate than my 9c's bigger brother.
Also, as a newer shooter, to pistols anyways (been hunting since I was 12) I don't really want to mess with buying a gun that may or may not have all these types of issues discussed in this thread. I want to buy it and train. I don't want to go through the trouble shooting described here, the ordering and swapping of parts, spending extra money etc to get it to where I can finally focus on training. And then doing that again and again whenever I buy a secondary.
That got me looking at the PPQ/P99 or a P2000 (with the PPS or SK as my carry when I'm at work with the shirt tucked in and a non-permissive environment) however; I don't want to fight the lack of mags, parts, holsters etc. That was one nice thing about the M&P, every shop I went to had mags etc. Plus, I do hear/read a lot of chatter steering newer shooters like me away from guns with the high bore axis or funky triggers (P2000/HK P30), simply for ease of getting proficient faster.
I don't let the lack of mags or off the shelf holsters bother me.
When I buy a new platform the first thing I do is buy 10 or so magazines off the internet so that's taken care of straight away.
As to holsters no matter what you do it's a PITA to find "the" holster (especially AIWB) so I just plug along until I find one that works and sell off the rest.
The good thing about "uncommon" guns is the holsters you don't like will usually sell quick on the forums for the same price you paid for them since other owners are also searching for the "one" and they can't just walk into the local store and buy one.
Spare parts have never been an issue for me even with guns like the Walther or H&K's. I do a little research and buy the most often needed spares/replacements before I need them, that way if/when it needs replaced I'm not down waiting on a slow boat from Germany. I also tend to buy my guns in pairs so I have a backup/parts gun if needed.
I've settled on the P2000/P2000SK LEM 9mm's and don't see myself changing for a long time.
btw: the "chatter" about high bore axis or the LEM being a funky trigger is just that, chatter based on ignorance. Buy a pistol and take a class from an instructor who's experienced with that platform and you'll gain proficiency at the same rate as you would with any other gun.
"For a moment he felt good about this. A moment or two later he felt bad about feeling good about it. Then he felt good about feeling bad about feeling good about it and, satisfied, drove on into the night."
-- Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy --
Just a few days after proclaiming how well our Glocks are running, my wife's newish FDE Glock 17 cratered today, and started experiencing stoppages almost every magazine (different magazines, Aguila 124 ball). We are 100 miles from the nearest paved road, in remote Alaska. It is her only G17 here (she has her G29 as primary and a Guide Gun, so no worries).The good news is I have a few 17's with me, and I plan to pull an extractor from one of mine later, replace it, and shoot it again to tomorrow. I am not very mechanical, but I can work on a Glock, which is an advantage out in the boondocks. By chance, I have a few of the new Glock non-dip extractors inbound from Brownell's due to arrive in a day or two, back in town.
Part way thru the session, both of us shooting a G17 as typical, I grabbed a P30 that I had brought along in my range bag, just to safisfy my curiosity. I warmed up with some dots, and went right to a FASTest. Hardly fair to the P30, my my two FASTests with it were 1.5 seconds slower than my G17 ones just before. Curiosity satisfied, I took the P30 off, put the 17 back on, and carried on.
Later, I zeroed a new Gen 4 Glock 20, which is my Glock bear blaster, along with the G29. The Gen 4 shot great, the texture helped hang onto it with the hot 10mm ammo, and recoil felt modest. Only issue I had, was with my 200 grain penetrator ammo, I was getting premature lock backs with cartridges in the magazine, which I suspect is related to the Vickers slides top. It was fun shooting dots with the 200 grain penetrator ammo. I ran one FASTest with the penetrator ammo, 5.8 clean, faster than the darn P30 9mm! Not a caliber I would want to run a class with, but certainly a lot easier to shoot well than a Scandium .44 magnum.
My father asked me to make a recommendation to my cousin for his first handgun, he is considering a 1911. I thought my response would be useful to others in the same situation. I am a LONGTIME lurker on forums, however lately I've been motivated to share what I've learned, so hopefully you'll find this information beneficial. This is my opinion based on my experience, so I'm not intending to start a flame-war by not mentioning a brand, or putting down a specific model (that I might not have enough experience with). This is my first post on pistol-forum, but I hope it will be one of many.
-
I think one of the basic questions is whether you intend to wear this concealed? If you're going concealed you may want a Commander or Officer length (4" - 4.5" barrel depending on manufacturer). I only have experience with Government (GI) length 5" barrel 1911s so that's what I feel comfortable discussing. At the end of this (epic) post, I'll discuss other options than the 1911 for your consideration.
My first gun purchase was a Springfield GI .45 A1. It is a basic entry level gun with good reputation for reliability and has a low entry price ($525 when I purchased in 2009). The short comings of this particular pistol is that although Springfield is a US company this model's frame is made by Imbel in Brazil. It also has low profile sights that are staked (not dove-tailed) and are not easily replaced by better after market ones. The workmanship of the gun is good, however since the frame is foreign made, I'm hesitant in investing in expensive gunsmithing services to improve sights. If I had to make the decision again, I would have spent $250 more for the Range Officer, a USA made frame, better sights, and a better trigger pull. However that would mean I would have invested more than 50% than the cheaper model. I can't recall a malfunction in more than 1450 rounds, so I can not comment on Springfield's customer service or warranty. Since I already own the GI A1, I've researched upgrading and refinishing it. To completely strip the internals, replace with better match quality parts, drill dovetail sights, and refinish I estimated about $1200 on top of the pistol's original price. Compare that $1700 with the cost of a $2600 custom gun made with the same frame.
If you intend to keep the gun forever, don't worry about resale value, think about shooting it. You will spend many times more money for ammo, and a better shooting experience is worth it. If you want a stainless or chrome version, buy it, so you're not regretting it later. The finish will probably wear similarly to parkerizing, but you might have better resale value with a lighter finish. However, you may be more likely to baby it.
If you get a manufacturer that builds to mil-spec, you'll have a lot of options for after market parts, however don't bank on replacing something later if you're unhappy with it to begin with.
FYI - The difference between a Series 70 and Series 80 is the firing pin block. Series 80 has a firing pin block, which means it's safer, but probably has a slightly less appealing trigger pull. The 70s are only meant for range work.
Magazines - Bad magazines will make a $5k gun perform like a $50 saturday night special. Invest in quality magazines. I like Wilson Combat or Chip McCormick, but the one that came stock with my Springfield has never had a hiccup.
Here are a few other models I've considered and researched for myself:
Remington R1 - Remington hasn't made handguns in a long-time until now. If you like the company, you probably will be happy with this gun. The enhanced version is more expensive, but it has better sights and some upgraded parts.
Colt - Colt is an old brand, but they've gone through many owners in the last 100 years. They do not have a reputation for good or quick customer service to civilians. You'll probably spend about $860 for a gun that Springfield sells for $525, however a Colt will always have a better resale value.
Kimber - I've heard Kimber was an awesome manufacturer, however they got too popular too quick and some of their quality assurance suffered from it. They are not cheap, however people really like them. If I was considering a $2500 gun, I'd spend $1200 on the Team Match II and not look back.
I probably wouldn't buy:
Rock Island Armory - Made in Phillipines, some people like them, but I'd look elsewhere.
Auto Ordnance - I like their parent company, Kahr, but I have no experience with their 1911s.
Para Ordnance - I've heard they are jam-o-matics.
Smith and Wesson - I like S&W, and have a 15-22 that I'm very happy with, however for the money I'd rather have a Springfield or Kimber.
Sig Sauer - If I was buying a Sig, I'd get something more traditional like a 220, 226, 229. This brand's 1911 is not mil-spec.
Ruger - This American manufacturer has a huge following and supposedly great customer service. However I am not a huge fan of their .22 pistols, 9mm pistols, or 10-22 rifles, so I don't own any Ruger guns. This might be an awesome gun, but I haven't had an opportunity to shoot one and change my mind.
If money was not a constraint ($2k+ 'semi-custom' 1911s) in no particular order:
Ed Brown
Nighthawk
Les Baer
Wilson Combat
STI
If you can be persuaded to hold on the 1911 and go forward with something else, then continue reading:
.45 is more expensive to shoot compared to 9mm. Less money for ammo means more practice, more practice means you'll be a better shooter sooner for cheaper. Personal defense is all about shot placement, however a .45 is significantly more lead to deposit in a threat. 1 round missed with a .45 does not equal one round hit with a 9mm.
.40 caliber ammo has a bigger diameter than 9mm and less diameter than .45. I bought a .40 and had feeding issues with it that inspired me to return it and get a 9mm instead. Cops seem to like it, however women and smaller framed folks might have a harder time controlling the snappier recoil. The .40 is more expensive to shoot than 9mm. I am now considering getting a .40 with a 9mm conversion barrel to shoot in a different class of competition, however I'm in zero hurry to do it.
Glock 19 (Gen 3) - I was a polymer frame and Glock hater. I couldn't be convinced I was going to like this gun. However, after taking a class with a heavy, steel framed CZ, I decided if I was going to continue training, I wanted to something lighter weight that I could ABUSE. It took me months to get used to the trigger pull and grip, however practice and dry-firing have overcome any issues to make this my PREFERRED HANDGUN. This was my 6th handgun purchase, however I should have gotten it first and saved about 4 other guns from the process. I have almost 5 thousand rounds through mine so far and only bought it in January. Glocks have the same trigger feel from model to model (except for target/competition models), so you can go from a sub compact 9mm to a full-size .45 and have the same trigger pull.
CZ 75 SP01 - This was my 3rd handgun purchase and is an excellent range gun. CZ is often copied, but never duplicated. Other manufactures like Armalite, Magnum Research, and Tangfolio (EAA) make clones, but I'd rather have a CZ any day. I have 3 variations of the CZ-75 (SP01, Kadet .22, and Compact). If you want a gun you can be proud of and shoot the piss out of, look no further. They have excellent customer service even though they are manufactured in Czechoslovakia.
Other Brands/Guns:
S&W M&P Series - I know people that really like them, but I'm committed to Glock for now. They just released the Shield which is getting a lot of press for being a good, concealable gun.
HK - Pretty expensive but good guns. I'd rather have 2 Glocks. The P-30 has great ergonomics.
XD/XDM - These are imported by Springfield from Croatia. I know people that like them, but I'm committed to Glock for now. For a while, I was really interested in their compact .45 (a longer magazine extends the grip to give a full-size feel). The XDS is a new model, it's a slim, concealable single-stack .45.
Walther - I really like the PPQ, but I'm not in a hurry to buy one. The PPK is legendary, but I think it's losing its relevance.
Beretta - I was considering a 92-fs before I purchased the CZ-75 SP01, however I much prefer the safety on the frame, not the slide. I am not a fan of decockers.
Sig Sauer - I like the feel and reputation of Sig, however I do not like decocker guns. They have good ergonomics and are reliable.
Browning / FNH Hi-Power - This is another gun designed by John Moses Browning (of 1911 lore), it is a legend in it's own right.
Brands that I would not choose for my first handgun:
Kahr (I have a CM9 that I'm really happy with, but don't make this your first and only gun)
Kel-tec (light and somewhat punishing to shoot)
Taurus (Questionable quality, however some people have gotten lucky and really like the brand for the value)
Hi-Point (You can do better than this.)
For the record, published magazines get paid to advertise the same brands they are reviewing, you need to cross reference people's experience with particular models, or invest in a company that stands by their warranty. Shipping a gun back for warranty service is not fun and can be more than a hundred dollars in postage, you want to invest in a company that will pay to correct their mistakes.
I have spent a lot of time in the last year doing my own research on guns that I want to own, so I hope this information is helpful. Please do not hesitate to ask me any questions on the topic.
If I've made any factual misstatements, if you disagree with any of my opinions, or if you have anything to add that you think is beneficial to other people that are starting the journey to handgun ownership - please reply to this thread.
Last edited by RyanTheLion; 07-14-2012 at 02:22 AM. Reason: Wrong Link
The MIM extractors must be soft. Have you grouped the Gen 4 G20 at 25 yds yet?
“Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais
I think most of the 1911 efficianados here will disagree with you on your statement regarding Series 70's being for range work only.
In any event, my advice for a first time gun owner is "don't buy a 1911." But if you must, then be dedicated to the platform, and be willing to study it the same way some guys study old cars. Personally I got better shit to do, so I'll continue to carry my plastic gun and drive my 2010 Toyota, and be happy with the fact that I'm not on a first name basis with my mechanic and/or gunsmith.
"A good shooter with a weak body and weak mind will lose against one who has the physical ability to crush him, and the mental ability to do it repeatedly"
-Kyle Defoor
GJM, is your P30 DA/SA or LEM?
Looking at the P30/M&P thread going, it appears that isn't a valid stance anymore. From that thread, it merely appears that your odds of getting a straight gun are somewhat better with the P30 than the rest right now.
I like 1911's,I have a couple.I would not recommend one for a first,thw S&W's are nice I shot one alot with no issues,stay away from the Kimber.
I would push him towards a glock, or M&P. both user friendly, very little maintenance, and better chance of getting one that is going to work out of the box.
you can get used glocks for cheap.
Reply With Quote