Keto and Paleo Diet

[rd62]

Did keto for about 18 months and lost 40ish lbs. Got down to about what I weighed in 10th grade. This was also combined with regular exercise, both weights and cardio. The diet was initially suggested by my physician and as he said, I found it difficult to stick to indefinitely.

Once I lost the unwanted fat and wanted to put on more muscle I had to up the calories per day.

I've kept to a low carb/low sugar diet with high protein but don't seek out additional sources of fat and will occasionally have some rice or potato, but not often.

[David S.]

I kinda liked the Wild Planet and Seasons brand sardines that Costco had for a while. A dude I generally trust likes the Matiz Gallego ones. I haven't tried them.

[Sal Picante]

My wife didn't mind the taste she can't get past "eating the little spines!!!" Once she noted defined body parts she couldn't do it anymore.

I ALWAYS think of the Monty Python episode with the "Crunchy Frog" bit...

[Sal Picante]

Carnivore (or 98-100% animal based) the last 3 years. That's been the ticket.

Most of my diet is red meat. But also eggs, fish, seafood, occasional bird or pork.
Sometimes I'll eat some heart or liver. Maybe a few wild blueberries. Negligible amounts of greens or vegetables. Veg is used as a condiment, if at all.

Man... I can't live without tomatoes and mozzarella, tomato sauce on zucchini "noodles", sprouts, Brussel sprouts...
Vegetables are pretty much zero calorie, space filling gut scrubber.

I tried to eat more meat, but it was too much protein for me: it kicked me out of ketosis. Additionally, I just wasn't getting enough calories.
I think one of the things that should be highlighted in this discussion is that there seems to be evidence that actually being in ketosis for the long haul is what provides a lot of the long term health benefits.

[JDB]

Man... I can't live without tomatoes and mozzarella, tomato sauce on zucchini "noodles", sprouts, Brussel sprouts...
Vegetables are pretty much zero calorie, space filling gut scrubber.

I tried to eat more meat, but it was too much protein for me: it kicked me out of ketosis. Additionally, I just wasn't getting enough calories.
I think one of the things that should be highlighted in this discussion is that there seems to be evidence that actually being in ketosis for the long haul is what provides a lot of the long term health benefits.

I used to care about ketone levels, but stopped a long time ago. Not that I'm not a fan of ketosis, but my ultimate goal isn't ketone levels of .5 millimole or higher, its how do I feel and perform. So I probably dip in and out of ketosis near daily. And that's fine. I can go long periods in strict ketosis (like a 5 day fast, or particularly high fat with lower protein level days), but don't see the point in pursuing it (for me). I simply perform better with higher protein levels.

If not getting enough calories, eat more, and maybe play with the protein to fat ratio (up the fat). Eventually it can become intuitive. I basically eat as if I had to live off of large animals. It becomes very simple over time. In the mood for ribeye or chuck? That might be your bodies way of saying I need more fat. If the fat is unpalatable?, that could be a sign you're getting enough. Protein is hard to overeat, and fat is very satiating. I may only eat once a day, and it could be 3 pounds of chuck roast, and then I might be good for 24 hours.

At the end of the day, it's still something like 60-70% fat, 30-40% protein for me. Restricting protein to 20% (as was so popular 3-4 years ago) doesn't seem as widely beneficial as it once did, though there can be good reasons for doing it. In general, most folks would probably be better off increasing to 25% or higher protein I think. But it's a worthy experiment to see how you respond messing with those macros.

[Sig_Fiend]

I've experimented with keto, paleo, and other low carb diets quite a bit over the past ~11-12yrs. I've had success and failures with variations of them. Best success was ~60lbs dropped in 6 months using a protein-sparing modified fast. Worst failure was most recently, on "carnivore", and not losing much (I'll explain later). I'm no doctor, so take my words with a grain.

Electrolytes & Deficiencies
With low carb diets, certain micro-nutrient deficiencies can occur if you're not careful. One you'll hear mentioned is the "keto flu". Hint: it's just an electrolyte imbalance. Here's a few micros you'll want to watch carefully and supplement for accordingly:

Sodium

• Salt your food significantly! With cutting carbs drastically, you'll most likey be deficient in sodium if you do not actively add it to your diet.
• With low sodium, you might notice increased lethargy, headaches, etc.
• Aim for at least 3g sodium per day. Several studies showed 4-6g is the optimal range for many people. For extremely fit people under significant physical exertion, some people may actually need more, at least on heavy workout days.

Potassium

• With low potassium, you might notice increased lethargy, headaches, heart palpitations, muscle cramps.
• Aim for at least 3g potassium per day, trying to push for 4g minimum if possible. RDA is 4.7g, however, if you start tracking your food precisely, you'll come to realize it's extremely hard to hit the RDA on a low carb diet.
• To get in plenty of potassium while keeping carbs low and well under 100g/day, you're pretty much stuck with canned spinach (prefer the added sodium type), avocados, and not a whole lot else.
• As a "supplement", Losalt (brand) or another salt substitute tend to have a bit of sodium and a high dose of potassium. I like to use a combo of Redmond Real Salt + Losalt to salt my food so I get a ton of each.

Magnesium

• Cutting carbs significantly, you're probably going to be very low in magnesium. With what carbs you do have, try to stick to greens. Again, canned spinach helps significantly here.
• As with the 2 electrolytes above, it's not uncommon to feel symptoms of lethargy and muscle cramps if you're low on magnesium. I'd aim for ~400mg/day.
• A common supplement on the market that might be handy to keep around is a "ZMA" (Zinc, Magnesium, Vitamin B6) supplement. If you find you're commonly waking up with cramps in the middle of the night, try taking ZMA before you go to sleep and it can help.

There are other micros that can be problematic on low carb diets (low iodine, vitamin K1/K2, calcium, etc.). This is already getting long so, I'll stick to these main 3 for now since they seem to be the most common culprits of a lot of issues.

Dietary Fat & Weight Loss
Everyone's genetics are a bit different, so YMMV. Much of the traditional thinking and recommendations around ketogenic diets usually favor a much higher percentage of dietary fat. For me personally, I've found I just do not lose much weight, or at least lose at a significantly slower rate, when pushing dietary fat much above ~100g/day. More recently, I tried more of a "carnivore"-oriented diet for ~6 months. Most of the time I was at ~140-150g fat/day, and past the first month, weight loss slowed to a crawl. Even when in ketosis, my understanding is your body will tend to use dietary fat first before ketones (from stored fat). Keep this in mind if your weight loss plateaus, and if so, consider a test of removing 20-30g/day fat from your diet over 1-3 weeks and measuring your results.

Consider in context what this means for the other two macros and your overall calorie goals. Say your BMR or maintenance calories are 2400cal and you're aiming for 2000cal to have a 400cal deficit for weight loss. If you're at 140g fat/day (fat = 9 cal per gram), that leaves 740 calories to distribute among protein and carbs. Protein is by far the most critical, and should actually come first, even before fat. There are various equations to determine this, but you'll have to check out the resources below for that. For myself and an estimated lean body mass of ~180lbs, and at one of the conservative equations that's 0.8g/lb of LBM (0.8-1.2g is the common range you'll hear), that's 144g protein/day (protein / carbs = 4 cal per gram). In that case, there's 576cal from protein, leaving a budget of 164 calories (41g) for carbs remaining.

Now if I decide to test pulling out 20g of fat, I'll need to make up the calorie difference somehow. Using the same math above, I might shift to 180g protein, 120g fat, 50g carbs to still hit 2,000 calories. Might this affect your level of ketosis? Sure, it will for some people, but it's something you'll have to test. I'm sure you'll start to see some potential limitations when you start experimenting with those numbers.

Resources
Get yourself The Ketogenic Diet book by Lyle McDonald. It's the gold standard for scientific-based knowledge and recommendations on these diets.
Read the Keto FAQ on Reddit.
Consider using a food-tracking app like Carb Manager. It's the best app I've found so far since you can track micros in detail.

[RONK]

Thanks again everyone!It's difficult for me to understand that eating fat is good for you.How do these diets and also intermittent fasting affect overall health,long term health and fitness?Sig_Fiend,thank you for the resources mentioned,any other books,videos,websites that I should be looking at?thank you all again.

[Sig_Fiend]

Just stick with that book and FAQ to start with. Trust me, there's more than enough there to keep you busy experimenting for several years. Since keto has gone mainstream in the past ~5yrs, if you go looking for "more" out there, you're going to find it, and much of it will be a distraction. As with any dietary community, almost all of the low carb communities have acquired their own snake oil salesmen, shills, and influencers who will waste your time and distract from the simple fundamentals that matter most.

[JDB]

I've experimented with keto, paleo, and other low carb diets quite a bit over the past ~11-12yrs. I've had success and failures with variations of them. Best success was ~60lbs dropped in 6 months using a protein-sparing modified fast. Worst failure was most recently, on "carnivore", and not losing much (I'll explain later). I'm no doctor, so take my words with a grain.

What were your problems with carnivore, and what did carnivore consist of for you?

Thanks

[RJ]

Thanks again everyone!It's difficult for me to understand that eating fat is good for you.How do these diets and also intermittent fasting affect overall health,long term health and fitness?Sig_Fiend,thank you for the resources mentioned,any other books,videos,websites that I should be looking at?thank you all again.

There's a lot of good advice up thread. I won't repeat it but it is excellent; some of the points raised reflect the same discoveries I made over the last 12 months (except the sardines, I don't think I could handle that. Ever since I had a baby octopus look me in the eye in that Tapas restaurant in Seville Spain, I haven't been able to do the whole sea-creature thing. But I digress.) Reread @Sig_Fiend's posts in particular.

From a practical standpoint for me? I can easily carry AIWB now. I can accomplish more of my daily tasks, easier. My shirts and pants fit easier without stretching. I'm not out of breath climbing a set of stairs. I look better (ok, that's debatable. )

As to the longer term benefits, based on the surveying I've done, overall your risk of all modern chronic inflammatory diseases goes down with low carb. Chiefly (and I may not have this right, I'm no M.D.) cardiac (heart attack), atherosclerosis, Alzheimer's, High Blood Pressure, and Type 2 Diabetes.

Ivor Cummins (Chem E.) has a good overview of the root causes of these being hyperinsulinemia (insulin resistance). He is on the web and youtube, this is typical: