A more efficient .38! Step inside for some edjumacation!

[jetfire]

I have thought of trying out USPSA revolver Major with my GP100.
Using 38SC brass on a moon-clipped gun seemed to be the way to go.

Not sure about getting major PF out of it though.

If you were going to try something like that, it would be a lot easier to just shoot 357 Magnum, which all pretty reliably makes major power factor.

[Jim Watson]

.38 SC is about the same case length as 9mm P so .38 SC Major would be in the same load range as 9mm Major.

Of course the main use of .38 SC is to speed the reload of a 9 shooter which is commonly shot in Minor.

[Bruce Cartwright]

I recall that concept cartridge from Cotterman also! (We are old, Bruce!) Didn't he call it the .357 Special?

Wayne:

You may be right as to the name Cotterman gave the cartridge. I am now going to have to see if I can find the article. As to old, guilty as charged. I seem to see the bottom of ibuprofen bottles with greater frequency lately...

Did you find the side plate you were looking for?

Bruce

[Bruce Cartwright]

@Bruce Cartwright

I wonder if Cotterman’s experiments are what led to the short lived 9mm Federal I asked about on here a few weeks ago?

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....deral-(rimmed)

Caballoflaco:

I couldn't say for sure. It is certainly possibly because the article predated the introduction of the 9mm Federal by a number of years. Some of the folks writing for gun magazines sometimes ended up working in the industry. One author, Terry Murbach, who wrote for Petersen's Handguns, ended up working for CorBon I believe.

Bruce

[OlongJohnson]

I never realized that .38sc is about the same length as 9mm Luger.

Does anyone know if one can get 9mm velocities with less powder than would be required in a .38/.357 case? I would think so, and if so it truly would be a more "efficient" cartridge in terms of less recoil and muzzle blast, without any of the potential drawbacks of 9mm in a revolver.

I'm thinking along the lines of .45 Auto Rim, but smaller.

I have an M&P 340 that's rated for .357 pressures. I would think it should be safe with 9mm pressures. So a 125gr XTP, working up from 124gr 9mm starting data should be reasonable. Wouldn't necessarily have to go to full 9mm velocity, just .38 SPL 4-inch velocity to get decent expansion, since that's what the bullet is engineered for. Need to crunch some more numbers and then break out some tooling, but it's interesting. More sure ejection with a snubbie ejector is attractive.

[Jim Watson]

Back to the 38 Short Colt, if I recall correctly, a gentleman named Dan Cotterman, who at one time wrote handloading columns/articles for the American Handgunner, experimented with a shortened version of the 38 Special. I don't recall all of the details, but his theory was a shortened 38 Special case was significantly more efficient with modern powders and he achieved some pretty impressive velocities. Mr. Cotterman was looking for better performance for defensive/hunting loads as I recall. You may be onto something with the 38 SC. It might be worth a look through the old Handgunner issues to see if you can find the article. Food for thought.

Bruce

MY recollection is that Cotterman was a regular contributor to Gun World, home of Lone Ranger Go Awaaay and the silver bullet.
I was not buying all issues and did not see the original article but a later reference to "that squatty-roo, the .357 Short."

How about a S&W BSR and .38 S&W +P+.

[03RN]

I'm thinking along the lines of .45 Auto Rim, but smaller.

I have an M&P 340 that's rated for .357 pressures. I would think it should be safe with 9mm pressures. So a 125gr XTP, working up from 124gr 9mm starting data should be reasonable. Wouldn't necessarily have to go to full 9mm velocity, just .38 SPL 4-inch velocity to get decent expansion, since that's what the bullet is engineered for. Need to crunch some more numbers and then break out some tooling, but it's interesting. More sure ejection with a snubbie ejector is attractive.

I haven't seen great performance of the 125gr xtp under 1100fps

[willie]

That makes life easier!


I am using a mix of 9mm and 38 special dies.


BTW, when it comes to long range (as in hundreds of yards) handgunning the LEE roll crimp die is absolutely critical. I learned that lesson shooting past 5-600 yards. I had huge fliers, rounds that would go yards off away from where the others were going. Then when the guy I was shooting with diagnosed my stuff looking for the reason why, he looked at my ammo and immediately recognized the issue.

Short version is that with the roll crimp, and a good heavy crimp, the round has time to build up pressure and gets a more consistent even release. The results down range were dramatic as soon as I switched. I even switched on .45 ACP and groups at 100 yards were better. Inside 75 yards you won't see a difference, but at extended ranges such as 150-200 yards and beyond, it really becomes very obvious. 500 yards is night and day.

Lee makes 3 dies that crimp. One is the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die. Another is the Lee Collet Die. A third is the regular crimp die included in its die sets. I think it may combine a taper and roll crimp capacity. In the past, all pistol die sets were sold with roll crimp dies, even those that headspace on the case mouth. With these, using cases that did headspace on the case mouth, you did not get in trouble unless you crimped the case into a crimp groove. Even then the extractor would headspace the case.

You are correct about using a proper crimp to provide sufficient bullet pull. Case tension against the bullet itself is a factor. Another is a strong roll crimp. Your cases appear to me to have been crimped in a collet die. If crimped in the regular Lee die, this die is taper crimping and roll crimping at the same time.

Good work, sir!

[JodyH]

Now if S&W would just come out with a slightly shorter frame and cylinder, longer barreled J frame for 9mm and 38sc... we'd have the perfect CCW revolver.
I'm thinking a 2-3/8" barreled J that's the same overall length as the current 1-7/8" barreled J.

[Bruce Cartwright]

MY recollection is that Cotterman was a regular contributor to Gun World, home of Lone Ranger Go Awaaay and the silver bullet.
I was not buying all issues and did not see the original article but a later reference to "that squatty-roo, the .357 Short."

How about a S&W BSR and .38 S&W +P+.

Jim:

You may be correct. I haven't had a chance to research any of the old Handgunner issues yet though. I often read Gun World because of Dean Grennell's and Tom Ferguson's articles. Mr. Grennell was pretty inquisitive and experimented with a wide variety of reloading topics. He did a multi article series on reloading, that I wisely photocopied. I still refer to it occasionally.

Bruce