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Thread: Ban-Compliant Defensive Rifles in the 2020s

  1. #231
    The Nostomaniac 03RN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 03RN View Post
    M1 with support gear
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    On the ragged edge of the world I'll roam,
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  2. #232
    Member gato naranja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    SLG looks very in control with that .458.

    PTR, I remember running a field course at Gunsite, shooting a dozen rounds of .458 Lott in just a minute or two. I was half dazed afterwards. PTR being "before torn retina," means I am no longer doing that these days.

    Zeroed the Micro on the Browning today at 50 yards. Reminds me of a modern HK SL-7. Should be an awesome tundra center fire option.

    Attachment 92553
    You're a member of the F.U.R. (R="retina") Club too? It's a distinction one would rather do without, and I have no desire to fire anything likely to require another "best we can do" repair. The vision thing is what would keep me from being perfectly happy with a '73 Winchester rifle, S&W Double Action Frontier revolver (both in .44-40) and a 12 gauge double with a DAMNED heavy set of barrels.

    I was fascinated by the SL-7 until I got the opportunity to shoot, detail strip and clean one... then my interest cooled. The resemblance to a G 41 or G 43 was not enough to sustain my initial infatuation.
    gn

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  3. #233
    Hillbilly Elitist Malamute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gato naranja View Post
    ... The vision thing is what would keep me from being perfectly happy with a '73 Winchester rifle, S&W Double Action Frontier revolver (both in .44-40) and a 12 gauge double with a DAMNED heavy set of barrels...

    Can you elaborate on this point? Is the "keep me from being happy" with the first 2 related to optics compatibility?
    “Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat.”
    ― Theodore Roosevelt

  4. #234
    Member gato naranja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malamute View Post
    Can you elaborate on this point? Is the "keep me from being happy" with the first 2 related to optics compatibility?
    Yes. My eyes now suck... and are getting suckier.

    Can modern optics be put on old stuff? Sure. It may be a cobbled up compromise and might desecrate the landscape, but there isn't much that can't be done if if you invest enough time and/or money. It is not something I would enjoy doing.
    gn

    "On the internet, nobody knows if you are a dog... or even a cat."

  5. #235
    Hillbilly Elitist Malamute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gato naranja View Post
    Yes. My eyes now suck... and are getting suckier.

    Can modern optics be put on old stuff? Sure. It may be a cobbled up compromise and might desecrate the landscape, but there isn't much that can't be done if if you invest enough time and/or money. It is not something I would enjoy doing.

    I dont believe its a given that it would be cobbled up or even prohibitively expensive.

    I intend to try a small pistol type red dot on the 1873 carbine. The goal will be as clean and compact mount as I can figure out and leave the irons intact.

    I would just enjoy having upgraded sighting options, and dont think it has to be a crime against humanity to achieve. My eyesight is still OK, if not quite up to my younger years level, but better sighting options give more flexibility to the individual gun and allow it to be a more practical general use item.

    I used to be opposed to scopes on Winchester 94s, and also recall passing on many shots that would have been relatively simple with a scope. Theres a place for iron sights lever carbines, they cover a lot of use niches, but arent as flexible as a general use gun. Same with a red dot on a 73 or whatever. The question arises "why not just take a bolt action then?" Well, thats one possible option, and one I used to do sometimes, even though I like levers quite a lot more. At some point it gets to be "Do I carry what i like and revel in its purity from ugly scopes and such but accept a significant handicap in actual use, or do I carry something I dont like as much but has better sighting?" Thats not the only possible answer though. I can accept that I can carry the levers I like, and add better sighting. Getting over the objection to it not being pure or whatever is that step that precedes that.
    Last edited by Malamute; 03-07-2023 at 11:23 AM.
    “Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat.”
    ― Theodore Roosevelt

  6. #236
    Member gato naranja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malamute View Post
    I dont believe its a given that it would be cobbled up or even prohibitively expensive.

    I intend to try a small pistol type red dot on the 1873 carbine. The goal will be as clean and compact mount as I can figure out and leave the irons intact.

    I would just enjoy having upgraded sighting options, and dont think it has to be a crime against humanity to achieve. My eyesight is still OK, if not quite up to my younger years level, but better sighting options give more flexibility to the individual gun and allow it to be a more practical general use item.

    I used to be opposed to scopes on Winchester 94s, and also recall passing on many shots that would have been relatively simple with a scope. Theres a place for iron sights lever carbines, they cover a lot of use niches, but arent as flexible as a general use gun. Same with a red dot on a 73 or whatever. The question arises "why not just take a bolt action then?" Well, thats one possible option, and one I used to do sometimes, even though I like levers quite a lot more. At some point it gets to be "Do I carry what i like and revel in its purity from ugly scopes and such but accept a significant handicap in actual use, or do I carry something I dont like as much but has better sighting?" Thats not the only possible answer though. I can accept that I can carry the levers I like, and add better sighting. Getting over the objection to it not being pure or whatever is that step that precedes that.
    We all have varying tolerances for things "up with which we shall not put." I have a red dot on a Marlin 1894CSS which has the heresies - to someone way over on the historic end of the spectrum - of an optic and stainless steel construction. It makes a nice utility package I can make hits with. Putting an M-Lok aluminum forend forend on it might make it even handier... but I ain't there yet.

    Maybe I will get there eventually; maybe I won't.
    gn

    "On the internet, nobody knows if you are a dog... or even a cat."

  7. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by SwampDweller View Post
    This is a topic I've already more or less come to conclusions on regarding handguns, but with rifles it might be more interesting. I've been thinking about what I would pick up as a main "go-to" rifle if suddenly we couldn't get all the "evil" rifles we typically would pick. That is, mostly non-detachable mag semi autos, bolt actions, or lever actions. The first two that came to mind in the autoloader camp are the M1 Garand and SKS (with fixed 10rd mag), and maybe an M1 Carbine if we're generous with what might be imposed if those who wish to pass an AWB some day get their way (or the ATF "redefines" things until it may as well be an AWB).

    The M1 Garand is obviously a classic choice, though I wonder if it would have the reliability and durability that our standards require today. Would an M1 Garand be able to make it through a typical high-volume weekend carbine course given adequate cleaning/greasing/maintenance? Yes, it's long and heavy, but in this context I'm mainly talking about reliability.

    Would the reliability of a good bolt action (old military or new, such as the Tikka T3x Arctic, or some modern Scout Rifle) be more suited to what one should require of a firearm they would trust their life to?

    Same question kind of goes for the SKS as well. With the AR15, we have a pretty good idea from military testing how reliable they can be. I believe the US Army in 2009-ish established the baseline reliability for the M4A1 as being around 3,600 Mean Rounds Between Stoppages (this was before M855A1, from what I've seen reliability is less impressive with the A1). Todd Green used to say that he considered a firearm truly "long-term reliable" if it could average 2k rounds or more between stoppages. Could an SKS do that if it were adequately maintained and lubricated?

    I started reading old threads, some going back to 2001-2002, from places like Tactical Forums where @DocGKR, Hilton Yam, and Pat Rogers used to hang out. There were some interesting conversations in there about ban-compliant rifles. Some of them mentioned were indeed the M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, Lee Enfield SMLE, and various lever actions. Twenty year old information, yes, but in 2021 I feel like it might be a worthwhile discussion. I'm interested in what might be the most reliable choice while still maintaining an adequate amount of fire power/speed of fire.
    An M-1 Carbine is a banned by name Assault Firearm in New Jersey. My vote for a ban compliant defensive rifle is G Gordon Liddys. An M-1 Garand

  8. #238
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    With NY's Bruen Response Bill - they made it so that in order to purchase a semi-automatic rifle of any kind - you need the same license you'd get to purchase a handgun. In my county that requires three references who live in the county and have known you for at least 2 years. It is a defacto ban on semi-automatic firearms and handguns. Including not being able to move here with ones I already owned.

    Any future ban-compliant rifle will have to be not semi-automatic. Look at UK and Australia for the types of bans that they want to bring here.

  9. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    With NY's Bruen Response Bill - they made it so that in order to purchase a semi-automatic rifle of any kind - you need the same license you'd get to purchase a handgun. In my county that requires three references who live in the county and have known you for at least 2 years. It is a defacto ban on semi-automatic firearms and handguns. Including not being able to move here with ones I already owned.

    Any future ban-compliant rifle will have to be not semi-automatic. Look at UK and Australia for the types of bans that they want to bring here.
    I have done a bit of shooting in Australia and Lee Enfields were popular in 2007. I am an ex NYer myself. That bit about 3 references in the county you live in acting as a defacto ban on someone moving in with a handgun has to be able to be successfully fought in a post Bruen world.

  10. #240
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    Yes, but those challenges are years in the making and processing. We have lower courts, appeals to the 2nd Circuit and then prayers that Scotus takes up the negative decision from the 2nd Circuit. This is because Bruen did not clearly state the application of the 2nd Amendment but sent 4 decisions back into a morass, they did not support the TROs by the first level of lower courts and decided to have a rule rather than clear positive statements of how permits should be granted with alacrity and criteria. The failure to support the TROs for some majesty of the lower courts and to scold the circuit was a moronic choice. We had a basic right. It was taking away. Clarence could have given it back but instead put it on pause. Yes, he and Alito said that the 2nd better get it together. Bullshit, they could have been charged with getting it together with the TROs in place.

    Bruen was a challenge to having to show purpose for a permit. That was voided and the state then threw waves of new crap that has to be fought.

    They could have said that permits to purchase and carry must be granted to anyone who takes a class (without undue expense and time) and passes a criminal background check. The permit should be granted in no longer than a month after submitting an application documenting the class. Instead, we got a rule about why Humford Dumpwiesel carried a cannon in a wheel barrel in 1698. Social media checks, moral character, blah, blah - that could have all been ruled out in the decision. The locale rules and opt in made carry impossible. Clarence's brilliant commentary on Manhattan was clobbered by opt in. I've said this a zillion times.
    Last edited by Glenn E. Meyer; 03-07-2023 at 05:00 PM.
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