Ban-Compliant Defensive Rifles in the 2020s

[SwampDweller]

This is a topic I've already more or less come to conclusions on regarding handguns, but with rifles it might be more interesting. I've been thinking about what I would pick up as a main "go-to" rifle if suddenly we couldn't get all the "evil" rifles we typically would pick. That is, mostly non-detachable mag semi autos, bolt actions, or lever actions. The first two that came to mind in the autoloader camp are the M1 Garand and SKS (with fixed 10rd mag), and maybe an M1 Carbine if we're generous with what might be imposed if those who wish to pass an AWB some day get their way (or the ATF "redefines" things until it may as well be an AWB).

The M1 Garand is obviously a classic choice, though I wonder if it would have the reliability and durability that our standards require today. Would an M1 Garand be able to make it through a typical high-volume weekend carbine course given adequate cleaning/greasing/maintenance? Yes, it's long and heavy, but in this context I'm mainly talking about reliability.

Would the reliability of a good bolt action (old military or new, such as the Tikka T3x Arctic, or some modern Scout Rifle) be more suited to what one should require of a firearm they would trust their life to?

Same question kind of goes for the SKS as well. With the AR15, we have a pretty good idea from military testing how reliable they can be. I believe the US Army in 2009-ish established the baseline reliability for the M4A1 as being around 3,600 Mean Rounds Between Stoppages (this was before M855A1, from what I've seen reliability is less impressive with the A1). Todd Green used to say that he considered a firearm truly "long-term reliable" if it could average 2k rounds or more between stoppages. Could an SKS do that if it were adequately maintained and lubricated?

I started reading old threads, some going back to 2001-2002, from places like Tactical Forums where @DocGKR, Hilton Yam, and Pat Rogers used to hang out. There were some interesting conversations in there about ban-compliant rifles. Some of them mentioned were indeed the M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, Lee Enfield SMLE, and various lever actions. Twenty year old information, yes, but in 2021 I feel like it might be a worthwhile discussion. I'm interested in what might be the most reliable choice while still maintaining an adequate amount of fire power/speed of fire.

[HCM]

This is a topic I've already more or less come to conclusions on regarding handguns, but with rifles it might be more interesting. I've been thinking about what I would pick up as a main "go-to" rifle if suddenly we couldn't get all the "evil" rifles we typically would pick. That is, mostly non-detachable mag semi autos, bolt actions, or lever actions. The first two that came to mind in the autoloader camp are the M1 Garand and SKS (with fixed 10rd mag), and maybe an M1 Carbine if we're generous with what might be imposed if those who wish to pass an AWB some day get their way (or the ATF "redefines" things until it may as well be an AWB).

The M1 Garand is obviously a classic choice, though I wonder if it would have the reliability and durability that our standards require today. Would an M1 Garand be able to make it through a typical high-volume weekend carbine course given adequate cleaning/greasing/maintenance? Yes, it's long and heavy, but in this context I'm mainly talking about reliability.

Would the reliability of a good bolt action (old military or new, such as the Tikka T3x Arctic, or some modern Scout Rifle) be more suited to what one should require of a firearm they would trust their life to?

Same question kind of goes for the SKS as well. With the AR15, we have a pretty good idea from military testing how reliable they can be. I believe the US Army in 2009-ish established the baseline reliability for the M4A1 as being around 3,600 Mean Rounds Between Stoppages. Todd Green used to say that he considered a firearm truly "reliable" if it could average 2k rounds between stoppages. Could an SKS do that if it were adequately maintained and lubricated?

I started reading old threads, some going back to 2001-2002, from places like Tactical Forums where @DocGKR, Hilton Yam, and Pat Rogers used to hang out. There were some interesting conversations in there about ban-compliant rifles. Some of them mentioned were indeed the M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, Lee Enfield SMLE, and various lever actions. Twenty year old information, yes, but in 2021 I feel like it might be a worthwhile discussion. I'm interested in what might be the most reliable choice while still maintaining an adequate amount of fire power/speed of fire.

1) It’s a pointless exercise unless you know the specifics of the ban you are trying to be compliant with. Assuming something like a Garand would be compliant with a future ban because it was compliant with the 1994 ban is foolish. There is no guarantee of that.

2) Bolt guns and lever guns suck for close range fighting. In a the event of a ban on semi auto rifles, semi auto shotguns and pump shotguns (in that order) would be the most effective personal defense guns.





Keep in mind that Karl from Inrange (the guy running the bolt gun) is a akilled and talented shooter who actually trains with old gear. Performance only goes down from there.

[Bergeron]

Why worry about what may happen, when you can live in the real world instead?

A Garand is a nice gun, period, and if it stays within whatever imagined restrictions, fine- same with an SKS, or even one of those hideous Cali-AR sort of guns. It doesn't seem like there's really anything to explore.

Per earlier posts, anything semiauto ends up being preferable to anything that's not, and there's a lot of good work that can be done with slugs within certain ranges. Lever guns have certain capacity and rate-of-fire advantages if magazine-fed and semi-auto are off the table.

If you know what you're trying to accomplish, and within what parameters, then optimal choices get pretty narrow.

[SwampDweller]

1) It’s a pointless exercise unless you know the specifics of the ban you are trying to be compliant with. Assuming something like a Garand would be compliant with a future ban because it was compliant with the 1994 ban is foolish. There is no guarantee of that.

2) Bolt guns and lever guns suck for close range fighting. In a the event of a ban on semi auto rifles, semi auto shotguns and pump shotguns (in that order) would be the most effective personal defense guns.

Keep in mind that Karl from Inrange (the guy running the bolt gun) is a akilled and talented shooter who actually trains with old gear. Performance only goes down from there.

I was more going off of the AWB that has been proposed to Congress in 2020 which seems more or less consistent with what has been proposed in the past 5-6 years. That is, no evil features allowed at all if it can take a detachable mag.

I remember that vid about bolt actions being obsolete, it's a fair point. I guess I'm mostly wondering if these old semi auto rifles with non-detaching mags would be reliable enough to trust as a hard use weapon the way we trust our ARs/AKs/whatever

[HCM]

I was more going off of the AWB that has been proposed to Congress in 2020 which seems more or less consistent with what has been proposed in the past 5-6 years. That is, no evil features allowed at all if it can take a detachable mag.

I remember that vid about bolt actions being obsolete, it's a fair point. I guess I'm mostly wondering if these old semi auto rifles with non-detaching mags would be reliable enough to trust as a hard use weapon the way we trust our ARs/AKs/whatever

Durability is part materials and part design.

Even if the materials were adequate when new, WWII was 75 years ago.

Given your parameters a tube fed semi auto shotgun with a red dot is effective out to 100 yards with appropriate ammo.

[pangloss]

Remington made that 870 pattern rifle in 5.56 that accepts AR mags, I think. That'd be a consideration. Another ban would spur new product development, so who knows what the "right" answer would be.

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[SwampDweller]

Durability is part materials and part design.

Even if the materials were adequate when new, WWII was 75 years ago.

Given your parameters a tube fed semi auto shotgun with a red dot is effective out to 100 yards with appropriate ammo.

Good point. That basically applies to the SKS as well, most being over half a century old.

[Bergeron]

I had a 7600 in .35 Whelen- fun, but I only showed up with that gun for a single 3-gun match before being politely directed towards ARs. A 5.56mm version would be fun, but if I’m pumping, I’m pumping shotgun, else a lever or bolt if it’s just gotta be a manually operated rifle.

For self defense, the neutered AR & AK have a lot to offer, along with the various M1A & Mini (or Garand)
patterns before diving off into strange pump, lever, or bolt action worlds.

[Bigghoss]

Remington made that 870 pattern rifle in 5.56 that accepts AR mags, I think. That'd be a consideration. Another ban would spur new product development, so who knows what the "right" answer would be.

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The 7615P. Everyone I've talked to that has tried one says they suck. Fragile for it's intended use, and finicky.



I've had SKS', the "paratrooper" ones are pretty handy. But there just isn't any good way to put anything on the gun. I would pick up a another just because but I have long since given up on trying to put one into any kind of serious role only because there's no good way to update them. Unless Sage International started making their CVFS chassis for them or someone else made a decent chassis without a PG.


If I had to get some ban compliant stuff, first thing I'm getting is a Mini-14. After that either an M1a or, preferably, a "tanker" Garand in .308 that takes M1a mags. After that maybe a Fulton Armory M1 carbine. Then I'll start grabbing some lever actions and make some space cowboy blasters.

[HeavyDuty]

I’ve given this a little thought. I personally would be ok with a pair of lightweight, short bolt actions with 1-4x, one in 5.56 and one in 7.62. Currently I have Stevens 200s in this role. Is this optimal? Hell no - but I’m low speed high drag.