How Deadly are Shotguns?

[Erick Gelhaus]

Level IIIA armor will still defeat 00 Buck and a normal speed lead slug right? I have IIIA armor that is quickly accessible. Level IV stuff, not quite.

Yes, neither of those loads have penetrated IIIA panels that I've shot with them over the years. I have seen some really good backside deformation with slugs; but I've never measured them.

[MandoWookie]

A5 related story.

Back in the late 90’s, when I was still in highschool, I met a fellow customer at the LGS who was picking up a 20g A5 he had cut down that he was planning to use as a home defense gun. The thing that makes it notable was that he was missing his left arm from just below the elbow. We talked for a minute about it being a cool gun and he explained to me that the A5 was his go to shotgun because he could chamber a round/run the action one handed by putting the muzzle on the floor and pushing down. He preferred a 20g for slightly less recoil. Obviously he couldn’t run a mag extension or use that technique outside, but I was impressed by his ingenuity, and it gave me another reason to appreciate Browning’s design that I hadn’t considered before.

After turning down the A5 and Browning walking, Winchester panicked and tried to make a competitor to the A5, only to find out out that their own engineers and patent lawyers had already patented everything unique in the design in Brownings name for him, like they had always done before. So one of those patents was for the charging handle.

Winchesters knockoff required pumping the barrel back via a knurled section on the barrel. The manual said to do it with the offhand, with the other hand holding the stock. But a lot of users found it easier to put the stock against the ground and push down with both hands. And occasionally mortar it into the ground when a swollen paper hull would get stuck in the action.
It got nicknamed the widowmaker after several owners killed themselves chambering a round with thus method.

Edit to add:

https://youtu.be/N1zadbdIbCw

[DDTSGM]

Level IIIA armor will still defeat 00 Buck and a normal speed lead slug right? I have IIIA armor that is quickly accessible. Level IV stuff, not quite.

Yes, neither of those loads have penetrated IIIA panels that I've shot with them over the years. I have seen some really good backside deformation with slugs; but I've never measured them.

I'm just spitballing here, like to have someone chime in with figures:

When I was researching for my less lethal projectile lesson plan, I came across the term/concept of viscous criterion -

The viscous Criterion assesses the risk of soft tissue injury by a rate-dependent viscous injury mechanism, and it supplements the Compression Criterion which assesses injury risk by a crushing mechanism.

As I understood, what is measured is the rate of compression and depth of, in this case, the chest wall:

....high-speed impact can cause severe injury to internal organs before either of the currently accepted chest injury criteria, which are based on spinal acceleration or chest compression, approach their tolerance limit.

Those studies demonstrate an interdependence between the velocity of deformation and compression of the body on injury risk. A tolerable level of chest compression at a low velocity can prove to be fatal at higher velocities of deformation.

The observation of a rate-sensitive tolerable compression led to the introduction of the Viscous criterion, VCmax, which accounts for the importance of both parameters.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3417691/

IIRC, at least one issue of the Journal of the International Wound Ballistics Association contained an article on VC related to 12gauge less-lethal projectiles.

TLR - the vest may stop the projectile but injury severity would depend on depth and rate of chest wall compression. I have never found that measurement for slugs.

[entropy]

After turning down the A5 and Browning walking, Winchester panicked and tried to make a competitor to the A5, only to find out out that their own engineers and patent lawyers had already patented everything unique in the design in Brownings name for him, like they had always done before. So one of those patents was for the charging handle.

Winchesters knockoff required pumping the barrel back via a knurled section on the barrel. The manual said to do it with the offhand, with the other hand holding the stock. But a lot of users found it easier to put the stock against the ground and push down with both hands. And occasionally mortar it into the ground when a swollen paper hull would get stuck in the action.
It got nicknamed the widowmaker after several owners killed themselves chambering a round with thus method.

Edit to add:

https://youtu.be/N1zadbdIbCw

That’s certainly doesn’t appear to be OSHA compliant.

[Rex G]

My wife worked for the Harris County (Texas) Medical Examiner, for 21 years, as a death scene investigator and photographer. Death scene, not autopsy room. Harris County is huge, and most of Houston’s sprawl is within Harris County. Some US states are smaller, in land area, than Harris county, and some US states have less population. IOW, she saw plenty of shotgun death scenes. Her favored defensive weapon? Shotguns. Hers is a pistol-grip-only 870 Wingmaster, and it is not the only “PGO” 870 in the house*. She really likes that I favor defensive shotguns.

For whatever reason, I saw relatively few shotgun injuries, during my time working the sometimes-mean streets of Houston, from 1984 to 2018; mostly night shift. Luck of the draw, and, I remained in patrol, so often got stuck on the perimeter. Plus, the inner-city area I worked was not filled with people who kept defensive/offensive shotguns. The most memorable shotgun death scene I worked, the deceased had landed, so that the entry would was not visible. He had robbed a convenience store, that was staked-out by moonlighting LEOs. He brought a knife to a shotgun fight.

I bought an S&W 3000 (Howa, IIRC) pump shotgun, during the academy, 1983/1984. When I could afford one, I switched to an HK/Benelli M1 Super 90. That Benelli, with its narrow stock, beat me up a bit much, so I switched to 870 pump guns, some time in the early Nineties. I returned to Benelli, in 2016, buying an M2, with the wonderful Comfort-Tech stock. Each of these choices was influenced by PD policy, which specified a very few approved duty shotguns. A 1301 sounds like fun, and I am now retired, so can use what I want, but I will not switch, this late in the game. Benelli makes a reliable product, and, I’d rather not re-learn a different safety button location; as my signature lines indicate, I am a kinesthetic dufus.

*After I switched back to the Benelli system, for duty and personal-time defense, I put a Pachmayr Vindicator grip on my 870P, and we have a Remington TAC-14, too.

[45dotACP]

I recall a story that really made an impact to me re: the devastating effect of the gauge.

https://special-ops.org/british-sas-...nelli-shotgun/

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[awp_101]

This thread made me scan the shelves of two local shops yesterday for a 1301 even though I was looking for CZs and 1911s. Alas, ‘twas all in vain though…

[Lex Luthier]

There have been some previous threads here on the subject that backstop Garandthumb's youtube video. They contain knowledge bombs from current SMEs here that are *absolutely* worth the effort to read.

The-Case-for-a-20"-Shotgun-No-Side-Saddle-Non-Flite-Control-Buck

Has-2020-s-Riots-Changed-Your-Mind-On-Shotguns-Still-Viable

Luckygunner-Shotgun-myths-article

Are-Shotguns-Really-Old-and-Busted

https://civiliandefender.com/2016/03...omes-the-boom/

[Standard]

I have this 1919 Remington Model 11 that I don't really know what to do with. My go-to is my 1301T, and I'm trying to find a purpose for this one, vs selling it to help fund another 1301, possible a 21" comp.

[Malamute]

I have this 1919 Remington Model 11 that I don't really know what to do with. My go-to is my 1301T, and I'm trying to find a purpose for this one, vs selling it to help fund another 1301, possible a 21" comp.

Contact me with details if you decide to sell it. I may not be the first to ask.