How Deadly are Shotguns?

[Rex G]

The GWOT is exactly what finally prompted the command staff to finally start allowing an AR15 to be in my patrol patrol car, in 2002. I had to buy my own, and I chose a pencil-barrel Colt AR15A2 Govt Carbine. Fortunately, we did have a 100-yard PD range, and the 32-hour cert class, involving much running and gunning, was quite good. Within three years, when plenty of younger bucks, with younger eyes and younger knees, had been certified, I sold my Colt to one of them, and remained content with just the shotgun. After non-magnified optics were finally allowed, some time later, and I heard that the timed run-and-gun qual had become kinder to those with tricky knees, I bought back into the AR15/M4 system, but never quite got around to re-certifying.

When the 2017 Stupid Bowl came to town, the trends of the GWOT were exactly why I had my Benelli M2, loaded with Tru Ball Penetrator Slugs, at my roadblock post, near the George Brown Convention Center. (Most of the official events, other than the game, were downtown, instead of several miles away, at the stadium.) To refresh everyone’s memory, in Europe, at the time, it was trendy for terrorists to steal “lorries,” as the BBC presenters say, and then drive them into crowds. I did not want an AR15; my personally-owned Benelli M2, with my personally-owned Tru Ball Penetrator Slugs, were exactly what I wanted, at that time and place. (I will neither confirm nor deny what intel has been disseminated to us. Paying attention to world events informed me well enough, regardless.)

[BobM]

North Hollywood was what put rifles in our cruisers (not the 11 .223 holes in my cruiser a couple weeks earlier) as well as others. The rifle instructor programs at the academy started filling up faster in 97. I would assume that the GWOT greatly accelerated that.

[Torsius]

If you need proof that 3” goose loads would be seriously bad news at short range, check out this gel test:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CKteNMB69sU

That’s not to say I would choose such a thing for HD, but there is a big difference between powderpuff 2.75” #8 dove loads and 3” (or, heaven help us, 3.5”) full-go waterfowl loads.

[ScotchMan]

This has been an enjoyable read, and is making me consider taking my 590A1 out this weekend when I was previously planning on burning through more of my 5.56. At one point I was thinking I was really onto something: "I bet birdshot isn't selling for insane prices like pistol and rifle ammo is, and I can get more reps in without fretting over how I'm replacing this ammo," but a quick look over at Lucky gunner shows the cheapest Wolf 7.5 shot shells at 46¢ a round Still, I'm going to keep my eyes open and if I can source some cheap birdshot, more/cheaper live fire practice is a good reason to choose the shotgun over a rifle, all by itself. It is certainly more widely available, I don't think I ever saw a gun store without some kind of birdshot even during the worst of the current shortages.

Still, I think I'll get out the Mossy for some reps.

I also like to listen to music, and if either of these unlikely scenarios would actually happen, it would not involve ear plugs. I still want to listen to The Allman Brothers again someday, seems like hearing is never really discussed when people talk about 5.56 for interior home defense.

I see where you're going with this, but earlier in the thread the use of suppressors was used as an argument for rifles and against shotguns, and for me is a factor as to why I (currently) have a rifle set up and intended for home defense while my shotguns are packed away.

[Malamute]

This has been an enjoyable read, and is making me consider taking my 590A1 out this weekend when I was previously planning on burning through more of my 5.56. At one point I was thinking I was really onto something: "I bet birdshot isn't selling for insane prices like pistol and rifle ammo is, and I can get more reps in without fretting over how I'm replacing this ammo," but a quick look over at Lucky gunner shows the cheapest Wolf 7.5 shot shells at 46¢ a round Still, I'm going to keep my eyes open and if I can source some cheap birdshot, more/cheaper live fire practice is a good reason to choose the shotgun over a rifle, all by itself. It is certainly more widely available, I don't think I ever saw a gun store without some kind of birdshot even during the worst of the current shortages.

Still, I think I'll get out the Mossy for some reps.



I see where you're going with this, but earlier in the thread the use of suppressors was used as an argument for rifles and against shotguns, and for me is a factor as to why I (currently) have a rifle set up and intended for home defense while my shotguns are packed away.

I go by the ammo section of walmart if Im in there, theres almost always been some sort of 12 ga field or target loads on the shelf through most of this ammo drought. The trapshooters forum discussed shotgun ammo often, they also report fair luck finding it at such places.

So suppressors arent a thing for shotguns? I thought someone had finally gotten over that hurdle?

[ScotchMan]

I go by the ammo section of walmart if Im in there, theres almost always been some sort of 12 ga field or target loads on the shelf through most of this ammo drought. The trapshooters forum discussed shotgun ammo often, they also report fair luck finding it at such places.

So suppressors arent a thing for shotguns? I thought someone had finally gotten over that hurdle?

There is one. I don't know a ton about it, but it does thread in via choke threads, and its quite big, so this is getting to be a very long and heavy weapon if you want any kind of capacity (which I favor). So I've never really considered it a reasonable option for home defense, but admit I haven't looked into it extensively. Might be something there.

[MandoWookie]

There is one. I don't know a ton about it, but it does thread in via choke threads, and its quite big, so this is getting to be a very long and heavy weapon if you want any kind of capacity (which I favor). So I've never really considered it a reasonable option for home defense, but admit I haven't looked into it extensively. Might be something there.

The one possible argument for a bull pup shotgun, if one could be designed and produced that wasn't a dumpster fire.

[mmc45414]

I see where you're going with this, but earlier in the thread the use of suppressors was used as an argument for rifles and against shotguns, and for me is a factor as to why I (currently) have a rifle set up and intended for home defense while my shotguns are packed away.

Yup, true.
But in my case (just never got that fired, pun intended, up to spend the money and go through the hoops) and many others who maybe don't have the legal option or financial wherewithal (budget, in police terms), the choices might be:
~53kPSI 16" rifle
~35kPSI 4" pistol
~35kPSI 16" PCC (IMO underappreciated, pistol powders make mine half-assed suppressed just from barrel length)
~12kPSI 18" shotgun

[ScotchMan]

Yup, true.
But in my case (just never got that fired, pun intended, up to spend the money and go through the hoops) and many others who maybe don't have the legal option or financial wherewithal (budget, in police terms), the choices might be:
~53kPSI 16" rifle
~35kPSI 4" pistol
~35kPSI 16" PCC (IMO underappreciated, pistol powders make mine half-assed suppressed just from barrel length)
~12kPSI 18" shotgun

That's a very valid thought process, and is why I had a 590A1 next to my bed for many years. However I wonder how the chamber pressure correlates to sound pressure levels (SPL)? According to this, a 18.5" 12 gauge registers 161.5db, a 18.5" .223 rifle registers 155.5db, and a 9mm handgun (presumably 4" barrel) registers 159.8db.

For me at least, my perception of the various volumes of firearms is largely impacted by the fact that I don't think I've ever discharged a shotgun indoors, but I have shot plenty of rifle and handgun at indoor ranges. And 5.56mm indoors rocks your socks, I won't even do it unsuppressed anymore. However shooting clays with my 28" Browning, I almost feel like hearing protection is unneeded (I know it is, and I wear it, but its such an enjoyable, quiet experience). But looking at the numbers doesn't seem to support that 12 gauge shotguns are quieter than rifles or handguns, all things equal.

[Borderland]

That logic has a pitfall. The issue is the murderer not the implement, and any discussion of the implement leads to the mentality of "ban them all".

Never wrestle with a pig.