How Deadly are Shotguns?

[Caballoflaco]

Deleted and moved.

[Lex Luthier]

Survivorship bias is a thing?
Plus, the 1890s was the transition to smokeless powder. Most of the previous consumer grade shotguns were dangerous with smokeless shells, and there wasn't much nostalgia value to an unshootable old break action single or double.

I do believe you've covered it.

Look here at the 1900 Sears, Roebuck & Co Catalog:

https://archive.org/details/catalogu...e/280/mode/2up

I counted 16 pages of shotguns and 6 pages of rifles. A lot of the shotguns listed were still Damascus steel barrels ( "special laminated steel" in Sears marketing-ese) , totally unsuitable for smokeless loads, even then.
The vast majority would have been sidelined or destroyed by the 1930s.
The Remington, Winchester, and LC Smith S X S guns listed in this 1900 catalog are likely still safe with modern lighter lead or antimony loads. The Winchester 1897 and Marlin pump models listed certainly are.

[entropy]

I’ll take the Winchester 1892 Takedown for $16.00 please. One in each caliber.

Make that two. Thank you.

I wonder if they take AMEX?

[Cheap Shot]

Dr Thumb with a follow up shotgun vid

[mmc45414]

I have always had shotguns, and shoot a lotta clays, but my SHTFantacy ideas have always leaned in the AR direction. But I have been doing a little three gun the past year, and I started out hating the shotgun stages (I really hated the clumsy reloading aspect of it). But then two things happened. First I practiced enough to get a little better at the reloading. And, in response to the scarcity of ammo, the organizers (who all seem to have open class shotguns...) started setting up stages with more manageable round counts. Strings of fire that would more mimic even a protracted civilian defense altercation, and now (perhaps not coincidentally with my skill set improving past the demoralizing failure level) I find myself thinking maybe I should reconsider, and am wanting a 1301T to go along with my Extreama I put the long tube on.

In regard to capacity and lethality, it occurs to me that each #1 Buck shell contains as many projectiles as a Glock 19 magazine.
ETA: Split times of zero point zero zero!

[Unobtanium]

I have always had shotguns, and shoot a lotta clays, but my SHTFantacy ideas have always leaned in the AR direction. But I have been doing a little three gun the past year, and I started out hating the shotgun stages (I really hated the clumsy reloading aspect of it). But then two things happened. First I practiced enough to get a little better at the reloading. And, in response to the scarcity of ammo, the organizers (who all seem to have open class shotguns...) started setting up stages with more manageable round counts. Strings of fire that would more mimic even a protracted civilian defense altercation, and now (perhaps not coincidentally with my skill set improving past the demoralizing failure level) I find myself thinking maybe I should reconsider, and am wanting a 1301T to go along with my Extreama I put the long tube on.

In regard to capacity and lethality, it occurs to me that each #1 Buck shell contains as many projectiles as a Glock 19 magazine.
ETA: Split times of zero point zero zero!

I have been messing with Benelli m4 shotguns for almost a decade and a half. Then I was introduced to the AR platform by people like Kyle Lamb and so forth. Previous to that, I'd just shot them from a bench, a la Colt 6724. Viewed them more as DMR type things for vermin. Understand I began that when I was 13 or so. GWOT hadn't even kicked off yet. Wouldn't for another half decade or so.

Anyway, Point being, I think it was the gwot that put ARs in squad cars. Tons of familiarity and training, and the comfort of being able to take a 300m shot down an alley or clear a mud hut supplanted the absolute bullshit fam fire that previous generations of cops had with the 870Ps and the like. The AR took things by storm. Ammo was still trash though. I remember back when Dr Roberts was pushing 77gr SMK for any but barrier shots, which le223t1 and le223t3 were good for. Ammo evolved though, and boy did it! GWOT put all things AR on the fast track.

One thing I can't get around, though, is what I, as a civilian, use a firearm for as pertains to people. I use it to defend my castle. If someone is inside my castle, and shooting them is the answer, I need results. Right then results. Nothing is going to do that like #1 or larger buckshot, or a slug, across a livingroom so to speak.

For all of the emotions and familiarity and so forth surrounding the AR, shotgun, pistols, and all the rationale for each, literally nothing but ordnance delivers the hate like the gauge, with the right ammo, at the right distance.

[DDTSGM]

Tons of familiarity and training, and the comfort of being able to take a 300m shot down an alley or clear a mud hut supplanted the absolute bullshit fam fire that previous generations of cops had with the 870Ps and the like.

For all of the emotions and familiarity and so forth surrounding the AR, shotgun, pistols, and all the rationale for each, literally nothing but ordnance delivers the hate like the gauge, with the right ammo, at the right distance.

Couple of thoughts -

1) Non magnified target ID is problematic for most at less than 100 yards, so 300M shots for LEO's shouldn't be a selling point.

2) At our facility shotgun training evolved well-beyond 'fam-fire' there are some capable LEO shotgun trainers out there.

3) One of the limitations for many agencies conducting patrol rifle training is their range. Many agencies only have 50 yards, heck more than a few only have 25 yards. A lot of agencies are stuck with legacy ranges because of the difficulty in finding land for new ranges - plus, you know budget.

Until I started raising a ruckus and started scheduling a couple range days at a rifle range for our patrol rifle classes, we were limited to 50 yards, and a couple of folks involved weren't really thinking outside the box. Pissed off a couple of my co-workers with that one.

I do agree, if I absolutely have to stop someone right now, I more than happy with a shotgun inside 15 yards.

[mmc45414]

Anyway, Point being, I think it was the gwot that put ARs in squad cars. Tons of familiarity and training

In my case, being an older boomer civilian, one of the coolest/funest things I ever got was my 9mmAR. It enabled running the target sequences we already were running with our pistols at medium ranges, and really put my manipulations on a steep learning curve.

Also a few years ago, I had a moment of clarity and admitted to myself that, with my short arms (am 5'-9", with kinda short arms) I really didn't like pump guns, and that I really didn't need a defensive shotgun, since I had plenty of ARs.

But now my three gun dabbling has me doing more shotgunning, and I think I recently had another moment of clarity.

One thing I can't get around, though, is what I, as a civilian, use a firearm for as pertains to people. I use it to defend my castle. If someone is inside my castle, and shooting them is the answer, I need results. Right then results. Nothing is going to do that like #1 or larger buckshot, or a slug, across a livingroom so to speak.

Yeah, or even in front of my house. If somebody is a realistic threat they are gonna be in shotgun range. And if they are in front of a neighbor's house it might be best to be launching something that is not likely to penetrate their siding by the time it gets there. Or I might be behind my house shooting at a coyote that came out of the woods and is chasing my dog. ETA: And when the cops get there (suburban township neighborhood where it is legal to shoot, but if I do the cops will show up) it might be smoother if I am holding a shotgun.

I also like to listen to music, and if either of these unlikely scenarios would actually happen, it would not involve ear plugs. I still want to listen to The Allman Brothers again someday, seems like hearing is never really discussed when people talk about 5.56 for interior home defense.

As far as capacity, I think some of the anxiety is fueled by competition that forces clunky reloading. Nobody wants to get up early and drive to the range and spend all day at a boring match that is made up of 3-4 round strings of fire. But I don't expect to be called on to testify against Avon Barksdale, I am extra careful around pets so I doubt I will back up over John Wick's dog, so if in the highly unlikely situation I am ever in a DGU situation I am likely gonna have enough ammo in a shotgun.

For all of the emotions and familiarity and so forth surrounding the AR, shotgun, pistols, and all the rationale for each, literally nothing but ordnance delivers the hate like the gauge, with the right ammo, at the right distance.

Video of Clint Smith shooting a ham on a post:
https://youtu.be/sro9uUOL0vM?t=88
(I tried to link to the specific time, 1:28 if it didn't work)

Anyway, all this leaves me hornier than a three-balled tomcat for a 1301T, right after I spent fun money on a second motorcycle...

[Unobtanium]

Here is me shooting a pork shoulder with MK318 SOST for comparison. There is none.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFVtZsSCSdI

[JTMcC]

Ham?
Pork shoulder?
What's wrong with you folks?
Put than in a crock pot with onions, garlic, other stuff and go find some obnoxious living animals to shoot. Coyotes, hogs, whatever