How Deadly are Shotguns?

[kwb377]

It's mine

I noticed the user name...if I hadn't prematurely blown through my gun funds for the next few months in the mere previous couple of weeks, I'd have already PM'ed you.

[Borderland]

While it is not an unreasonable concern, I personally would not let it stop me even for a second. We all have to gauge our own comfort level, and I will not take issue with someone who chooses to pass if they are uncomfortable with that safety style. I have used A-5s like that before and it never bothered me. I understand the concerns over lowering the hammers on lever guns (and accidents that happened while doing so led manufacturers to introduce cross bolt safeties on such platforms, I never had an issue with a lever gun, nor have I had an issue with lowering a hammer on a DA revolver, though I have had some pretty dang numb fingers and took some extraordinary precautions while doing so on some occasions.

The point being, I personally would definitely would not let the trigger guard safety stop me from buying such a fine piece of American Bad-Assery if I saw it for sale at my local store. It just screams Old School Cool, and has a style that just cannot be matched by todays boring polymer.

Older 870's also have that trigger guard safety. Not sure about anything past 1970 as that's the only one I'm familiar with. Mines not set up for HD but I wouldn't disqualify it based on that. I have an old hammer 97 that has a 20" cyl. barrel. They didn't put safeties on those. It's the Glock of shotguns. If I wanted an HD shotgun I would just pull the 3 round plug and load that baby up with some buck shot.

I never got on the shotgun-for-home-defense wagon but they're popular. My main objection to them is reloading one. Might be fine for a primary but I'll want some sort of a magazine pistol as a backup. I have the same objection regarding lever guns and revolvers (without moon clips) so I'm not being critical toward just shotguns. Needs a magazine IMO. Probably why dems don't want you to have more than 10 rds.

[ssb]

Older 870's also have that trigger guard safety. Not sure about anything past 1970 as that's the only one I'm familiar with. Mines not set up for HD but I wouldn't disqualify it based on that. I have an old hammer 97 that has a 20" cyl. barrel. They didn't put safeties on those. It's the Glock of shotguns. If I wanted an HD shotgun I would just pull the 3 round plug and load that baby up with some buck shot.

I never got on the shotgun-for-home-defense wagon but they're popular. My main objection to them is reloading one. Might be fine for a primary but I'll want some sort of a magazine pistol as a backup. I have the same objection regarding lever guns and revolvers (without moon clips) so I'm not being critical toward just shotguns. Needs a magazine IMO. Probably why dems don't want you to have more than 10 rds.

I suppose my question is how many rounds do you really expect to be firing from your shotgun in defense of home?

Yeah, I know, we don’t get to pick who comes through the door, but my experience is that barring extenuating circumstances such as being a drug dealer (the only circumstance where I have seen a large group home invasion), I just don’t see fending off the Great Tweaker Horde as a realistic concern for most folks. The tolerance level for a load of 00 buckshot delivered at close range is quite low for most folks.

People far more experienced than me have commented on each shell as being a single “serving,” and further observed that most of the two-shot shotgun shootings involve a poorly-placed first round. When you add to that ballistic effectiveness the fact that my shotgun is staged in a location that just so happens to be an excellent shooting position for my home where I hold all the advantages, I’m quite comfortable with the six rounds in the tube and taking two seconds to feed in an additional round from the side saddle. My decision to let them come to me (or better yet, leave) makes me less concerned about all the flashy Instagram running and gunning stuff.

[Spartan1980]

Somebody mentioned lights on a SG? Yes please!




As to the side saddle, one of the beauties of the Browning is the magazine cutoff. Stored with an empty chamber (ETA: actually chamber status doesn't matter), all one needs to do is flick the cutoff, grab the charging handle, rack it, and stuff an alternate load (from what's in in the mag tube) from the side saddle if the situation requires it. Stuff it in the port and go to work.

The old Browning design and any of it's variants can hold their own with any modern SG iteration offered today.

[Borderland]

I suppose my question is how many rounds do you really expect to be firing from your shotgun in defense of home?

Yeah, I know, we don’t get to pick who comes through the door, but my experience is that barring extenuating circumstances such as being a drug dealer (the only circumstance where I have seen a large group home invasion), I just don’t see fending off the Great Tweaker Horde as a realistic concern for most folks. The tolerance level for a load of 00 buckshot delivered at close range is quite low for most folks.

People far more experienced than me have commented on each shell as being a single “serving,” and further observed that most of the two-shot shotgun shootings involve a poorly-placed first round. When you add to that ballistic effectiveness the fact that my shotgun is staged in a location that just so happens to be an excellent shooting position for my home where I hold all the advantages, I’m quite comfortable with the six rounds in the tube and taking two seconds to feed in an additional round from the side saddle. My decision to let them come to me (or better yet, leave) makes me less concerned about all the flashy Instagram running and gunning stuff.

I think the reason a carbine is the universal SD weapon is the mag. I think a lot of ones definition of a SD weapon depends on where they live. If one lives in a rural environment where threats can come from ones property (acres) and not just inside the house a fast reload might be optimal.

I had a situation here where an armed individual came through my neighborhood while the police were hunting him with dogs and a helicopter. Our property is heavily wooded. I went through it with my dog and a carbine because the sheriff wouldn't, even though my neighbor had spotted the suspect near his house. A shotgun might have worked just as well but I can't see myself in a gun fight with a shotgun when the range exceeds 50 yards. Others with more experience than I with buck shot might have a different opinion, I'm just going on my experience with smaller shot on pattern plates. Every shotgun patterns a load differently. How many people who use a shotgun actually pattern their loads? I know one person who has a shotgun for SD and has never patterned a load. As a matter of fact, we have a pattern plate at our range and in the 5 years I've been a member I've never once seen anyone use it.

[Wake27]

I think the reason carbine is the universal SD weapon is the HC mag. I think a lot of ones definition of a SD weapon depends on where they live. If one lives in a rural environment where threats can come from ones property (acres) and not just inside the house a fast reload might be optimal.

I had a situation here where an armed individual came through my neighborhood while the police were hunting him with dogs and a helicopter. Our property is heavily wooded. I went through it with my dog and a carbine because the sheriff wouldn't, even though my neighbor had spotted the suspect near his house. I didn't like the idea of a fugitive holed up on our property. They eventually rounded the suspect up about a half a mile from our house using dogs. The most excitement I've had here in 25 years.

Ammo capacity is up there IMO, but ease of use is my primary reason. An 11.5” SBR in 5.56, with truly enhanced (not gimmicky) controls is exponentially easier to use effectively and is more versatile. People love saying that the shotgun is versatile and while it is to an extent, that’s based around the actual shell in the gun. 00 buck at 3 yards may well have better terminal ballistics than my 75gr Gold Dot but I could use my round with the same level of effectiveness from contact distance inside my bedroom to the end of the street if someone was doing a drive-by on our neighbor’s house.

I can go from a 16.1” OAL barrel in commie states to a 10.3” barrel where SBRs are allowed without worrying about on board capacity. I can suppress it to preserve some level of night vision and hearing, and because recoil is lower I can achieve first round hits and faster follow up shots easier and faster.

Plus I’m not worried about pumping or getting an auto that’s actually reliable with light recoil loads.

I honestly have no idea why anyone would use a shotgun over an AR aside from old cops that have 30 years experience with them and almost none with a rifle or states where you’re so handicapped legally that most other options are outlawed.


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[jh9]

Related question to the original topic: How short can you go before the reduced recoil buckshot loads stops being so effective? 14" SBS? 12" Howdah?

[ssb]

I think the reason a carbine is the universal SD weapon is the mag. I think a lot of ones definition of a SD weapon depends on where they live. If one lives in a rural environment where threats can come from ones property (acres) and not just inside the house a fast reload might be optimal.

I had a situation here where an armed individual came through my neighborhood while the police were hunting him with dogs and a helicopter. Our property is heavily wooded. I went through it with my dog and a carbine because the sheriff wouldn't, even though my neighbor had spotted the suspect near his house. A shotgun might have worked just as well but I can't see myself in a gun fight with a shotgun when the range exceeds 50 yards. Others with more experience than I with buck shot might have a different opinion, I'm just going on my experience with smaller shot on pattern plates. Every shotgun patterns a load differently. How many people who use a shotgun actually pattern their loads? I know one person who has a shotgun for SD and has never patterned a load. As a matter of fact, we have a pattern plate at our range and in the 5 years I've been a member I've never once seen anyone use it.

Running around in the woods with a rifle or shotgun actively looking for somebody is rather far outside my home defense lane. Frankly, there are people we pay to do such things. They typically bring friends, radios to call even more friends, and body armor.

I live and work in an area that’s light suburban and rural. The more rural folks may, perhaps, differ in their choices. I will say that every home/property defense shooting I’ve seen in the more rural parts of my area has been done with a handgun with the exception of one, which is more of a business dispute than home defense but it did involve a home invasion. That was resolved with a single shot 12 gauge with about a 9” barrel, no stock or sights, and a slug from a measured 43 yards. Had I not seen the neighbor’s video I wouldn’t have believed it.

As to patterning, it’s about twenty yards from any door or window to the edges of my property line. I know what FFC 00 buck out of my gun does at that range. I also know where slugs hit with my Aimpoint zero. As a matter of fact, patterning has been a part of each shotgun class I’ve attended.

Ammo capacity is up there IMO, but ease of use is my primary reason. An 11.5” SBR in 5.56, with truly enhanced (not gimmicky) controls is exponentially easier to use effectively and is more versatile. People love saying that the shotgun is versatile and while it is to an extent, that’s based around the actual shell in the gun. 00 buck at 3 yards may well have better terminal ballistics than my 75gr Gold Dot but I could use my round with the same level of effectiveness from contact distance inside my bedroom to the end of the street if someone was doing a drive-by on our neighbor’s house.

Like walking around in the woods actively looking for somebody, intervening in drive-by shootings is well outside of my home defense envelope. If that’s a thing that’s a realistic concern in your part of the world, I don’t know what to tell you except to say that Colorado Springs must have taken a very bad turn since the last time I was there.

My shotgun has a light and an Aimpoint. Unless and until I need to reload, I don’t see how working the charging handle, shouldering the gun, putting the dot on target, and pressing the trigger is any more complicated with either a rifle or a shotgun.

If and when calling 911 results in a dial tone, perhaps I’ll reconsider my choice.

[Wake27]

Running around in the woods with a rifle or shotgun actively looking for somebody is rather far outside my home defense lane. Frankly, there are people we pay to do such things. They typically bring friends, radios to call even more friends, and body armor.

I live and work in an area that’s light suburban and rural. The more rural folks may, perhaps, differ in their choices. I will say that every home/property defense shooting I’ve seen in the more rural parts of my area has been done with a handgun with the exception of one, which is more of a business dispute than home defense but it did involve a home invasion. That was resolved with a single shot 12 gauge with about a 9” barrel, no stock or sights, and a slug from a measured 43 yards. Had I not seen the neighbor’s video I wouldn’t have believed it.

As to patterning, it’s about twenty yards from any door or window to the edges of my property line. I know what FFC 00 buck out of my gun does at that range. I also know where slugs hit with my Aimpoint zero. As a matter of fact, patterning has been a part of each shotgun class I’ve attended.



Like walking around in the woods actively looking for somebody, intervening in drive-by shootings is well outside of my home defense envelope. If that’s a thing that’s a realistic concern in your part of the world, I don’t know what to tell you except to say that Colorado Springs must have taken a very bad turn since the last time I was there.

My shotgun has a light and an Aimpoint. Unless and until I need to reload, I don’t see how working the charging handle, shouldering the gun, putting the dot on target, and pressing the trigger is any more complicated with either a rifle or a shotgun.

If and when calling 911 results in a dial tone, perhaps I’ll reconsider my choice.

Neighbor is a cop, so while I don’t expect it, given how LE has been targeted for the past few years, I wouldn’t say it’s impossible.

As far as actually using, I personally find my Radian short throw safeties, Geissele SD-Cs, and placement if my SureFire tape switch as improvements over many shotguns I’ve handled (admittedly few). Again, all of that pales in comparison to recoil and therefore less anticipation and better follow up shots. Plus the benefits of a significantly shorter (or at least, easily adjustable) length of pull, point ability, or the benefits of a suppressor.


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[Borderland]

Running around in the woods with a rifle or shotgun actively looking for somebody is rather far outside my home defense lane. Frankly, there are people we pay to do such things. They typically bring friends, radios to call even more friends, and body armor.

I live and work in an area that’s light suburban and rural. The more rural folks may, perhaps, differ in their choices. I will say that every home/property defense shooting I’ve seen in the more rural parts of my area has been done with a handgun with the exception of one, which is more of a business dispute than home defense but it did involve a home invasion. That was resolved with a single shot 12 gauge with about a 9” barrel, no stock or sights, and a slug from a measured 43 yards. Had I not seen the neighbor’s video I wouldn’t have believed it.

As to patterning, it’s about twenty yards from any door or window to the edges of my property line. I know what FFC 00 buck out of my gun does at that range. I also know where slugs hit with my Aimpoint zero. As a matter of fact, patterning has been a part of each shotgun class I’ve attended.

We have a few sheriffs where I live but the response time isn't something I would want to count on. Backup would have to come from a town/county that's 12 miles away. I have a neighbor who's a deputy sheriff but he works in another county. He's hardly ever home.

SD shotguns are a relative new thing that will probably better serve the needs of more urban dwellers than a pistol, especially if they never shoot it, which I believe is the case. I did a search for tactical shotgun classes near me and came up blank. Mostly what I see is opportunities for tactical pistol and AR training. Most people aren't willing to travel to train when an overnight stay is required. Might be different where you live. Then once you get the training you have to follow up with actual range time. Almost impossible around here unless you can drive for a few hours to find a gravel pit.