1911 - fire with no magazine but loaded chamber?

[Rmiked]

My Beretta 92A1 will fire if loaded and no magazine and the frame is inscribed with this warning. As a combat pistol this makes sense to me as you may wind up changing magazines or otherwise losing one that was in the pistol, but have a sudden need to fire the one round you have loaded. I was reading a couple of John Browning’s patents this morning (1910-1911) and he specifically required the slide catch to deactivate the trigger if no magazine is in the pistol to prevent the exact thing my Beretta 92A1 will do. I am not at home now . When I get home I will see if my Dan Wesson 10mm Specialist will dry fire with the magazine out (thumb safety off and grip safety depressed). I expect it will. I always assumed it would just like the Beretta but never tried it. Anyone know any back story on this? Do any 1911s fire with no magazine installed? If so, it seems JMB thought the safety element was more important than needing to fire in a rare situation. Perhaps with military application and the sheer numbers of opportunities for mishap, he was correct. I don’t see it as unsafe if using the other safeties correctly? For all I know later patent revisions removed this requirement and I just don’t have the history. Nor have I handled an early military version 1911 to see if they were built this way.

[JSGlock34]

I'm not aware of any 1911s with a magazine disconnect (not counting Star). To my knowledge, all 1911s will fire with the magazine removed. The popular 10-8 Extractor Test for the 1911 even requires firing the pistol without a magazine inserted. However, JMB did incorporate the magazine disconnector into possibly the most prolific service pistol of all time - the Browning Hi-Power. The intent of the device is to prevent NDs by those who mistakenly believe removing the magazine has rendered the pistol unloaded and safe. Some military requirements of the time (such as the French military sidearm) specified a magazine disconnect. Regardless of opinions on the utility of the magazine disconnect, the implementation of the feature on the Browning Hi-Power did much to shape opinions of the device. On the BHP, the magazine disconnect would make the trigger pull heavier, while also preventing a magazine from falling free when the magazine release was depressed, requiring users to strip the magazine from the pistol. The BHP magazine disconnect was unpopular and often removed. Other manufacturers (such as Smith and Wesson with the 3rd Generation autos) have also implemented the feature from time to time.

[Rmiked]

Very interesting that you are not aware of any as I know you are experienced. The hi-power patent was filed in 1923. The patents I read were 1910 and 1911. If there were no early 1911 military pistols made with mag-disconnect, perhaps subsequent revisions removed it. But no question JMB specified it at one point. I always liked the Beretta philosophy and it seems that carried over to 1911s; at least later versions. I expect my DW Specialist will dry fire with no mag when I try it. I have seen some discussion about various pistols getting stovepipes sometimes when fired with no magazine. Hickok45 demonstrated some Glock and 1911s that will fire reliably with no mag but occasionally stovepiped (1 of 6) with no magazine. If for some reason you ever needed one shot and had no magazine, you would be seriously upset if the gun wouldn’t go bang. Some have reported instances where magazines just fall out of their pistols. So it could happen that you have no magazine.

[farscott]

No, JMB did not specify it; he patented it. Patent royalties and licensing fees were the source of his income; as such, he patented many ideas that may or may not have made into it a product.

I am not aware of any 1911-pattern pistols other than the Star which used a magazine disconnect.

[Rmiked]

Wow, that’s a good explanation. That explains the difference between the patent and the pistols produced.

[MDFA]

I'm not aware of any 1911s with a magazine disconnect (not counting Star). To my knowledge, all 1911s will fire with the magazine removed. The popular 10-8 Extractor Test for the 1911 even requires firing the pistol without a magazine inserted. However, JMB did incorporate the magazine disconnector into possibly the most prolific service pistol of all time - the Browning Hi-Power. The intent of the device is to prevent NDs by those who mistakenly believe removing the magazine has rendered the pistol unloaded and safe. Some military requirements of the time (such as the French military sidearm) specified a magazine disconnect. Regardless of opinions on the utility of the magazine disconnect, the implementation of the feature on the Browning Hi-Power did much to shape opinions of the device. On the BHP, the magazine disconnect would make the trigger pull heavier, while also preventing a magazine from falling free when the magazine release was depressed, requiring users to strip the magazine from the pistol. The BHP magazine disconnect was unpopular and often removed. Other manufacturers (such as Smith and Wesson with the 3rd Generation autos) have also implemented the feature from time to time.

This...

And to add, most of us who shoot Hi Powers remove the magazine disconnect because of the above issues.

[Jim Watson]

The Pocket Hammerless .32 and .380 eventually got magazine disconnects but did not when first produced.

As said, Mr Browning patented a lot of stuff that his customers did not use; which made it awful tough for the competition.
Just look at the odd Savage and Remington pistol designs.

[okie john]

That set of pistol trials began in 1907. The Browning design remained basically unmodified until the Army adopted the new pistol on 29 March 1911.

Those patents were issued after the lockwork of the 1911 was already set in stone and handed down from on high.

A burning bush may have been involved.


Okie John

[MandoWookie]

That set of pistol trials began in 1907. The Browning design remained basically unmodified until the Army adopted the new pistol on 29 March 1911.

Those patents were issued after the lockwork of the 1911 was already set in stone and handed down from on high.

A burning bush may have been involved.


Okie John

https://rangehot.com/evolution-1911-pictures/

Not quite, in 1907, they where still using the twin link dropping barrel system from the 1899 patents, ( and he also patented a pistol blowback mechanism, a gas-operated pistol system, and rotary-barrel system, and of those Colt and FN would use the blowback, and Steyr would use the rotary barrel), it was in 1909 they first used the single link tilting barrel, and even up to the 1910 prototype there wasn't a thumb safety, only the grip safety.

And if I recall correctly, most of the development work after 1909 was done by Colt engineers, and things like the thumb safety and a lot of the final ergonomic form were their work.

Edit to add:

https://youtu.be/vgOicEVA4u8

Here is a vid showing most of the development progression.

[okie john]

I stand corrected.


Okie John