Mass shootings and unsuccessful heroism

[ford.304]

I've read news stories about the people who successfully stopped or impeded a mass shooting - the people who tackled the Tucson shooter while he was reloading, or the off duty cop who shot the attempted mass murderer at his church. And I've read what feels like a million interviews with people who ran for their lives, or hid under their desk while the killer walked around executing everyone else.

I can think of almost no stories about the people who found the courage to fight, but simply couldn't overcome the odds against them of a prepared and armed killer. Are there just that few? Or do they not get mentioned in the news? Somehow it would make me feel better about people to know that at least one of the victims was shot mid-charge instead of the back of the head. From a practical standpoint, it might give better information about just how long your odds are in this sort of confrontation.

What examples do people know of?

[ACP230]

There was an incident at a courthouse in Texas. Nutjob going after his estranged wife and the cops who responded at the courthouse. A guy who lived across the street came out of his apartment and took on the perp. He had a .45 ACP, IIRC.

The perp was wearing body armor and, although the guy scored hits, they didn't take the perp down. He was shot and killed by the perp who was using a rifle.

The perp was eventually killed, some miles off, by a cop with a rifle.

Can't recall the town, or names of those involved. I think Mas Ayoob wrote about it in American Handgunner.

[cdunn]

There was an incident at a courthouse in Texas. Nutjob going after his estranged wife and the cops who responded at the courthouse. A guy who lived across the street came out of his apartment and took on the perp. He had a .45 ACP, IIRC.

The perp was wearing body armor and, although the guy scored hits, they didn't take the perp down. He was shot and killed by the perp who was using a rifle.

The perp was eventually killed, some miles off, by a cop with a rifle.

Can't recall the town, or names of those involved. I think Mas Ayoob wrote about it in American Handgunner.

Mark Wilson, Tyler Courthouse shootout,Mark Wilson was an idpa, type shooter,(game shooter) who tried to save people at the court house shootout,he shot the shooter who was wearing armor and was then shot afterwardsi'm sure someone can correct me if wrong,this shooting was covered in a FPF training class in pretty good detail,we later performed the Wilson drill(el pres.)

[41magfan]

Incidents of people acting on any instinct or compulsion to defend themselves (or others) isn't generally covered with much fanfare by the MSM. It doesn't fit in their agenda or strengthen their position that we should all just be sheep and just go with the flow.

Afterall, it's ALWAYS best to be compliant and for heaven's sake do not resort to relying on a gun. You're much more likely to shoot yourself or a family member than successfully defend yourself.

It's true ..... I saw it on TV.

[Tamara]

What examples do people know of?

Dan McKown at Tacoma Mall.

Guy was shooting up the joint with a MAK-90, and Dan threw down on him with his CZ and told him to drop his gun. He turned and lit Dan up pretty good instead.

[Joe Mamma]

Mark Wilson, Tyler Courthouse shootout,Mark Wilson was an idpa, type shooter,(game shooter) who tried to save people at the court house shootout,he shot the shooter who was wearing armor and was then shot afterwardsi'm sure someone can correct me if wrong,this shooting was covered in a FPF training class in pretty good detail,we later performed the Wilson drill(el pres.)

I think Mark Wilson had a 1911 (45 acp) and hit the bad guy multiple times. But as was mentioned, the bad guy was wearing body armor.

Joe Mamma

[Jason F]

I read a thread somewhere in the last day or two that mentioned a guy with a wrestling background who attempted to physically counter a shooter somewhere (I believe it was in the NW somewhere) and he ended up taking rounds and dying. I'll see if I can dig up the incident or victim name so we can see more info.

What about Luby's Cafeteria? The handgun locked in the truck of the future state congresswoman could have dramatically changed the outcome of that event. For a bunch of people it may have rendered a different outcome. Perhaps even for her - if she would have engaged, she may have been hit and injured or killed. We'll never know unfortunately.


But yes, these stories are out there. Like Tamara said though, you're not very likely to hear about them in the immediate aftermath, especially from the MSM.


And who's to say any number of incidents where we applaud the actions of an armed individual couldn't have gone south for that person. Even the guy the other day in the Florida Internet Cafe. A slightly more determined perp, a loaded gun is used, a jam of the "defenders" gun giving the bad guy a moment of opportunity..... Any good encounter could easily go bad by 100 small maybes. And any bad incident could possibly have been mitigated or severely hampered by any one or number of 100 small maybes in the other direction. We'll never know, and you just can't rationalize that. It's just the way the cards fall sometimes. As prepared or not as you may be, sometimes the circumstances are too stacked against you (or the perp!), even if they don't know it and we only figure that out in hindsight.

[Tamara]

And who's to say any number of incidents where we applaud the actions of an armed individual...

That's the problem: AN armed individual.

Firearms, like vaccines, work best from a standpoint of herd immunity. The act of whipping out a firearm in public should be a guarantee of going down in a hail of bullets; choosing a victim for a mugging should involve a virtual certainty that they are armed, rather than a mere 1-in-20 chance. Even in the most gun-friendly of states, the odds of a criminal encountering armed resistance are lower than their chances of them going straight and finding honest work.

[S Jenks]

Edgewater Technology, Christmas 2000 in Wakefield, Massachusetts. Michael McDermott was a disgruntled employee about to be fired when he decided to use an AK variant, 12-gauge pump and .32 pistol to shoot up Human Resources. The following is from an article by Erich Pratt of Gunowners.org, published in 2008:

"It was the day after Christmas, and people were back to work at Edgewater Technology in Wakefield, Massachusetts.

Sandy Javelle, a widower and father of four children, was visiting with fellow employees. He normally worked out of the New Hampshire office, but today he just happened to be in the Wakefield building.

Unfortunately for Sandy, this was the wrong day to be visiting the Wakefield branch.

In another part of the office, Michael McDermott was joking and chatting with a fellow employee. Cool and relaxed, he seemed to be caught up in a festive mood. It was the day after Christmas, after all.

"I was having a conversation [with McDermott] and suddenly he was not talking with me," said a project manager. "So, I walked away."

Well, McDermott had other things on his mind. Grabbing the black gym bag on his desk, he began his journey to the accounting department -- apparently to "discuss" the wages which the IRS was garnishing from his paychecks.

Nicknamed "Mucko," McDermott is a hulking 42-year old man with shoulder-length hair and a bushy black beard. He looks more like a Civil War veteran than a computer programmer.

The former Navy submariner pulled an AK-47 and a shotgun out of his bag. He also had a pistol tucked inside his waistband.

"Hey," a startled coworker called out from a nearby office, "where are you going with that?"

McDermott just continued walking, undaunted, until he reached the reception area. It was there that he started firing. For the next seven to eight minutes, McDermott methodically shot several victims. He rarely missed.

People began diving behind desks and barricading themselves behind doors. Calmly, McDermott strode towards the accounting department. He switched to his shotgun and sized up a new target.

It was Sandy Javelle.

A victim of gun control

An Army veteran, Sandy had been trained to stare death in the face. He barricaded several coworkers into a room and went out to meet McDermott.

There was no naivete on Sandy's part. As an avid sportsman, he was quite familiar with firearms. He even possessed a concealed carry license from the state of New Hampshire.

There was just one problem. He was now in Massachusetts, a state which does not recognize concealed carry permits from its neighboring state.

Sandy quickly approached McDermott and paused at the copy machine. The meeting between the two men lasted only an instant, as McDermott leveled his shotgun and fired into the face of his unarmed victim.

Sandy became the third casualty that day. Four more would die before the shooting ended."

In all, McDermott killed seven before surrendering to the police. Later found found guilty on all counts and sentenced to life imprisonment. The victim featured above, an Army vet, had gone off to try to stop an active shooter with nothing more than bare hands or perhaps an improvised striking weapon. God bless him.

[Ray Keith]

Mark Wilson, Tyler Courthouse shootout,Mark Wilson was an idpa, type shooter,(game shooter) who tried to save people at the court house shootout,he shot the shooter who was wearing armor and was then shot afterwardsi'm sure someone can correct me if wrong,this shooting was covered in a FPF training class in pretty good detail,we later performed the Wilson drill(el pres.)

Wilson I believe had a pistol, the shooter had a rifle.