Are BUIS necessary on a defensive pistol

[Adam]

Reality makes me want to say "no". The current state of dots/plates/mounting issues/the somewhat infancy of Dot Lyfe makes me think "yes". With the irons options we have today they don't have to take up the whole window, I'd have them on all guns just in case.

[SoCalDep]

I think much depends on what one considers "necessary".

As has been pointed out as an iron sight advantage, my department trains to confirm zero by co-witnessing iron sights and making sure they still match. When carrying a pistol to potentially employ under stress against living and moving people, knowing the dot is where it should be is a thing.

Further, while there are alternative methods to achieve hits without the use of iron sights, none of those methods are, in my opinion, precise aiming references. They can "get the job done", especially when the backdrop is a huge berm behind paper targets with no one around, but when you are moving and the guy who is shooting at you is moving on a street with cars driving by and little Timmy riding his bike I need to know where that round is going to go. I must be accountable. If something happens to the optic then it's time to revert to the other precise aiming reference which is the irons.

I can see why competitors might not bother with iron sights. I would never carry a pistol for defense or duty that didn't have zeroed iron sights in addition to the dot.

Also, to present some anecdotal experiences, I've seen two Leupold DeltaPoint Pros shift zero with no movement of the adjustment dials. One of them would bounce every one to three shots from one side of the front sight to the other. It was much more amusing to me than it was to the owner. Also, when we dropped the Holosun 509T, the optic was rendered useless because the dot shifted significantly (actually outside the window if iron sights were aligned) and could not be adjusted back.

So back to the original question... Are iron sights "necessary"? Ultimately one can live a whole life without ever needing to present a gun in self defense, let alone shoot it. So for most people from a purely statistical standpoint I'd say no... They're not necessary. Neither is the gun we're carrying... until and unless it is. To me iron sights are the same thing. I don't like the word necessary though... I'd say in my world they're essential.

[GJM]

I think much depends on what one considers "necessary".

As has been pointed out as an iron sight advantage, my department trains to confirm zero by co-witnessing iron sights and making sure they still match. When carrying a pistol to potentially employ under stress against living and moving people, knowing the dot is where it should be is a thing.

Further, while there are alternative methods to achieve hits without the use of iron sights, none of those methods are, in my opinion, precise aiming references. They can "get the job done", especially when the backdrop is a huge berm behind paper targets with no one around, but when you are moving and the guy who is shooting at you is moving on a street with cars driving by and little Timmy riding his bike I need to know where that round is going to go. I must be accountable. If something happens to the optic then it's time to revert to the other precise aiming reference which is the irons.

I can see why competitors might not bother with iron sights. I would never carry a pistol for defense or duty that didn't have zeroed iron sights in addition to the dot.

Also, to present some anecdotal experiences, I've seen two Leupold DeltaPoint Pros shift zero with no movement of the adjustment dials. One of them would bounce every one to three shots from one side of the front sight to the other. It was much more amusing to me than it was to the owner. Also, when we dropped the Holosun 509T, the optic was rendered useless because the dot shifted significantly (actually outside the window if iron sights were aligned) and could not be adjusted back.

So back to the original question... Are iron sights "necessary"? Ultimately one can live a whole life without ever needing to present a gun in self defense, let alone shoot it. So for most people from a purely statistical standpoint I'd say no... They're not necessary. Neither is the gun we're carrying... until and unless it is. To me iron sights are the same thing. I don't like the word necessary though... I'd say in my world they're essential.

I think with no dot, it is pretty intuitive to transition to BUIS, but in the instance of a dot that is misaligned, it can be very confusing. If you are up for some data gathering at one of your classes, consider trying this. Intentionally adjust the dot so that it is far off, and don’t tell the student anything beyond you want them to shoot some targets with your pistol. I would be very interested in how much missing with the red dot has to happen before they realize there is a problem and shift to their BUIS.

[GJM]

EG, this would be a perfect Gunsite simulator scenario, give them a pistol with a significantly misaligned dot and BUIS, and see what happens.

[fatdog]

I watched Frank Proctor's red dot video a couple of weeks ago. He does not run BUIS on any of his pistols. His stated reasons:

1. It opens up more of the window for you to "receive visual information" about the shot you are breaking.
2. At typical defensive distances the big window is enough of an index for you to make the shot if the dot goes dead.

In the video he proceeded to take the battery out of a Deltapoint Pro and engage an array of targets from 7-20 yards, IPSC B/C steel, he got hits on all.

I have BUIS in place, so I have not been in position to test this with my level of shooting skill, obviously not in the league with Frank's.

[SoCalDep]

I think with no dot, it is pretty intuitive to transition to BUIS, but in the instance of a dot that is misaligned, it can be very confusing. If you are up for some data gathering at one of your classes, consider trying this. Intentionally adjust the dot so that it is far off, and don’t tell the student anything beyond you want them to shoot some targets with your pistol. I would be very interested in how much missing with the red dot has to happen before they realize there is a problem and shift to their BUIS.

I agree with you 100% and I've seen it with loose optics, those DPPs, and glare. It takes a lot of missing before they realize there's a problem - and that would be on a square range. The problem would be enormously compounded by movement and an inability to "see the miss" since there won't (likely) be a puff of dirt on the backstop like at a range. That's why I think it's so important to be able to check/confirm optic zero on a regular basis, which is one of those benefits of iron sights.

All that said, the same problem exists for iron sights, and I've seen that a lot as well and personally experienced it. There's a lot of missing that usually happens before the person realizes their sights have shifted.

To summarize, the BUIS are not there to fix a shifted dot in a fight. I won't say it "can't" happen, but I would be hugely impressed with someone who could figure that out and go to irons in a fight, just as I'd be hugely impressed if they noticed their irons were shifted during a fight. The irons are there more for if the dot goes away, which is the more likely situation.

We recommend a regular procedure to:

1. Ensure iron sights aren't loose or missing
2. Check the battery cap tightness if applicable
3. Check screws for tightness (hand tight with wrench or preferably check indicator marks)
4. Clear debris with lens brush, lens cloth, and/or lens cleaning wipes.
5. Apply anti-fog if necessary
6. Confirm zero by co-witnessing with iron sights
7. Check and adjust reticle brightness

How often this needs to occur is going to be based on the comfort level and seriousness of the use (a cop going on patrol might do it daily, a competitor before each match, a CCW weekly, etc.). I know I do some of those things every day with my carry gun and other things on a more weekly basis. I'm in Southern California so I almost never apply anti-fog to my carry gun.

[JCN]

While I have BUIS on every defensive red dot pistol I have carried, are BUIS really necessary?

I think you are an excellent enough shooter that you absolutely could deal with a failed dot and still be successful in a gunfight.

I also think that when a dot failed in a stage it probably didn’t take you more than a tenth to realize what was going on before moving forward.

I think a lot of less skilled shooters would be significantly time impaired and OODA loop interrupted by it.

I think you are answering a different question, which is do dots fail, and the answer is obviously that they do.

My question is what are the circumstances where BUIS would allow you to be successful, and you could not otherwise get the job done through pure index or using the optic as a big ghost ring? I don’t have BUIS on most of my competition pistols, have had multiple failures in matches, and have always been able to finish the stage. Heck, for the first six months YVK shot CO, I don’t think he used the dot on most of his shots, and he still did pretty darn good.

Following.

Due to a lack of experience on my part, I had my G48 slide milled for a 507k, but opted to have them remove the rear sight dovetail. So my EDC G48 has the optic, but just a steel 0.156" front sight. I've shot it with the vestigial rear "sight" molded into the Holosun and the front sight, so I know where it shoots (top of front sight) without the dot. I suppose sometime I should turn the dot off, and do some testing to see how / whether I can index using the optic as a ghost ring, as GJM says.

Very interested in this discussion.

I think developing an index that you can use even with your eyes closed or if vision obstructed is more important and an earlier step.

I’ve posted this video before, but it’s me doing 1 second draws with doubles at 7 yards with a dot turned off, no BUIS with a gun I don’t normally shoot just using “ghost ring” index.

Then with the dot turned on.

This is a Shield Plus with a RMSc, which offers perhaps the ideal BUIS arrangement, because regular height iron sights can be used, and the RMSc display is so clear.

I am pointing at an electrical outlet at six yards.

Attachment 72151

Agreed. That’s my favorite optic and BUIS combination for carry.

I watched Frank Proctor's red dot video a couple of weeks ago. He does not run BUIS on any of his pistols. His stated reasons:

1. It opens up more of the window for you to "receive visual information" about the shot you are breaking.
2. At typical defensive distances the big window is enough of an index for you to make the shot if the dot goes dead.

In the video he proceeded to take the battery out of a Deltapoint Pro and engage an array of targets from 7-20 yards, IPSC B/C steel, he got hits on all.

I have BUIS in place, so I have not been in position to test this with my level of shooting skill, obviously not in the league with Frank's.

I think all of that is predicated on being a good shooter with a good index.

I know a lot of shooters that can have all the visual information in the world but their grip and trigger press is so bad that more information isn’t the limiting factor. It’s like the TGO video “why aiming is useless [if you stink at shooting].”

Any dot shooter that swears they are slower within 7 yards with a dot than irons falls into the underdeveloped index camp.

So @GJM, I would have no hesitation if you were my bodyguard carrying a pistol without BUIS.

A lot of other people I’d want them to have all kinds of backup doodads.

[GearFondler]

I agree with you 100% and I've seen it with loose optics, those DPPs, and glare. It takes a lot of missing before they realize there's a problem - and that would be on a square range. The problem would be enormously compounded by movement and an inability to "see the miss" since there won't (likely) be a puff of dirt on the backstop like at a range. That's why I think it's so important to be able to check/confirm optic zero on a regular basis, which is one of those benefits of iron sights.

All that said, the same problem exists for iron sights, and I've seen that a lot as well and personally experienced it. There's a lot of missing that usually happens before the person realizes their sights have shifted.

To summarize, the BUIS are not there to fix a shifted dot in a fight. I won't say it "can't" happen, but I would be hugely impressed with someone who could figure that out and go to irons in a fight, just as I'd be hugely impressed if they noticed their irons were shifted during a fight. The irons are there more for if the dot goes away, which is the more likely situation.

We recommend a regular procedure to:

1. Ensure iron sights aren't loose or missing
2. Check the battery cap tightness if applicable
3. Check screws for tightness (hand tight with wrench or preferably check indicator marks)
4. Clear debris with lens brush, lens cloth, and/or lens cleaning wipes.
5. Apply anti-fog if necessary
6. Confirm zero by co-witnessing with iron sights
7. Check and adjust reticle brightness

How often this needs to occur is going to be based on the comfort level and seriousness of the use (a cop going on patrol might do it daily, a competitor before each match, a CCW weekly, etc.). I know I do some of those things every day with my carry gun and other things on a more weekly basis. I'm in Southern California so I almost never apply anti-fog to my carry gun.

Every morning I confirm that the gun is loaded (mag and chamber), the dot is on and cowitnessed with the irons, and the witness marks on the screws are good.
I usually do the same before bedtime but not religiously.

[CCT125US]

@JCN agreed, and thanks for saving me alot of typing.

[Mjolnir]

While I have BUIS on every defensive red dot pistol I have carried, are BUIS really necessary?

Absolutely and always.


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